Goodson scam update...

... and there are even more who couldn't give a rat's ass about Steve
Goodson, his business dealings and the lengths a few folk go to to rubbish
this guy's name on a newsgroup called MUSIC.SAXOPHONE...
stick to the music, man !
Simon

Post by Shang
I was just wondering if Andy Warr or others (who have been waiting for
the resolution of their dealings with SG) could give us an update.
I'm sure there are a lot of folks who are interested in how this plays
out.

Neal

2004-01-22 16:11:25 UTC

Post by Simon T
... and there are even more who couldn't give a rat's ass about Steve
Goodson, his business dealings and the lengths a few folk go to to rubbish
this guy's name on a newsgroup called MUSIC.SAXOPHONE...
stick to the music, man !
Simon

Are you saying that an instrument in good repair is not germane to sax
playing? In what way do you feel this is off-topic?

Seems to me that if this were a alt.driving.cars newsgroup and someone
posted about a repair shop that never returned their car, anyone saying "I
don't care, stick to the driving!" would be interpreted in one of two ways
- either extremely insensitive to something of importance to the
newsgroup, or possibly a lackey for the repair shop.

Not saying this is you, but I think it'd be nice to know exactly WHY
discussion of a repair shop is so much of a problem for you.

Simon T

2004-01-22 18:44:11 UTC

Neal - amazed to learn you speak for the whole NG on this. Many of the
readers of this NG (believe it or not) don't live in the US of A, really
don't care if some repair shyster has ripped you off or not and reckon you
should be tracking Mr Goodson down personally if you have a prob with him,
or start alt.music.saxophone.goodson and set yourself up for a liable case
professionally.
A great feature of this NG is sharing useful stuff that can help / inform
globally aka Tim Price, Stephen Howard et al.
Am I a 'lackey for the repair shop' ? What, in New Zealand ?? 'Extremely
insensitive' - man, this Goodson flame has been going for months... almost
as long as one of those 'Can Kenny G play the sax?' trolls. Move on !
Simon

Are you saying that an instrument in good repair is not germane to sax
playing? In what way do you feel this is off-topic?
Seems to me that if this were a alt.driving.cars newsgroup and someone
posted about a repair shop that never returned their car, anyone saying "I
don't care, stick to the driving!" would be interpreted in one of two ways
- either extremely insensitive to something of importance to the
newsgroup, or possibly a lackey for the repair shop.
Not saying this is you, but I think it'd be nice to know exactly WHY
discussion of a repair shop is so much of a problem for you.

Tarantula

2004-01-22 21:45:43 UTC

Simon,
As a casual observer, it's interesting to note that whilst you said "Neal -
amazed to learn you speak for the whole NG on this", you then went on to do
exactly the same thing ! ;-)
Now I don't care either way whether or not this guy is a rip-off merchant or
a genuine chap, but if I was thinking of having work done, and I saw a bunch
of people who were not happy, then this might influence my decision, and I
might well be better off for it.
If you are unhappy about the whole issue, so be it, but you shouldn't start
jumping down peoples throats because you aren't in the US (neither am I) or
you don't think it's 'on topic' - from what I recall of the original posts,
most of them were just asking questions or stating their experiences,
generally trying to help each other out with info' (not gossip).
NB: If someone libels another - that's their bag - leave 'em to it !

Aside from that - this is a great NG (haven't been here long, but like what
I see) - even your posts - at least I know you people are alive !
If you can't do something with passion, why do it eh ?
Marc

Post by Simon T
Neal - amazed to learn you speak for the whole NG on this. Many of the
readers of this NG (believe it or not) don't live in the US of A, really
don't care if some repair shyster has ripped you off or not and reckon you
should be tracking Mr Goodson down personally if you have a prob with him,
or start alt.music.saxophone.goodson and set yourself up for a liable case
professionally.
A great feature of this NG is sharing useful stuff that can help / inform
globally aka Tim Price, Stephen Howard et al.
Am I a 'lackey for the repair shop' ? What, in New Zealand ?? 'Extremely
insensitive' - man, this Goodson flame has been going for months... almost
as long as one of those 'Can Kenny G play the sax?' trolls. Move on !
Simon

Are you saying that an instrument in good repair is not germane to sax
playing? In what way do you feel this is off-topic?
Seems to me that if this were a alt.driving.cars newsgroup and someone
posted about a repair shop that never returned their car, anyone saying "I
don't care, stick to the driving!" would be interpreted in one of two ways
- either extremely insensitive to something of importance to the
newsgroup, or possibly a lackey for the repair shop.
Not saying this is you, but I think it'd be nice to know exactly WHY
discussion of a repair shop is so much of a problem for you.

Shang

2004-01-23 02:25:41 UTC

I'm not trying to speak for anyone.
I'd simply like to know what happened to the claims made against this
sax dealer.
There were several complaints issued, here, and I'd just like to know
how things were resolved....it might actually even be that things were
resolved positively for the dealer in question....
but there is no way to know when this is swept under the rug.

If you don't want to read this stuff, I'd suggest you just scroll on
by.

I see no harm in checking up on the state of affairs concerning
possibly unscrupulous dealings- indeed, I see a GREAT benefit to all
players here- when these things are discussed openly.
It would definitely influence my potential purchase of a horn.

Shang

2004-01-23 03:32:00 UTC

Since SimonT brought this up..
I went back to have a look and see if this issue has been totally
overcooked.
Simon, I don't see it. I saw a total of 2 threads on this issue- now
maybe I missed something, and maybe other threads turned into this
issue, I don't know.

Toby

2004-01-23 12:40:14 UTC

Hey Simon,

This is on-topic. This ng is about saxophones. Maybe you don't live in the
USof A but a number of saxophonists do, and they might be interested in how
this all goes down. If you don't want to read it don't read it. Plenty of
bandwith for all sax-related matters here.

Toby

Are you saying that an instrument in good repair is not germane to sax
playing? In what way do you feel this is off-topic?
Seems to me that if this were a alt.driving.cars newsgroup and someone
posted about a repair shop that never returned their car, anyone saying "I
don't care, stick to the driving!" would be interpreted in one of two ways
- either extremely insensitive to something of importance to the
newsgroup, or possibly a lackey for the repair shop.
Not saying this is you, but I think it'd be nice to know exactly WHY
discussion of a repair shop is so much of a problem for you.

Reed Right

2004-01-23 12:58:50 UTC

I wholeheartedly agree with Neil - by the way, I know for a FACT that
many repairman, including the one in question, accept work from other
countries - including your country. Repairmen, their skill, and their
reputation are very, very, very much on topic here.

Grumps

2004-01-23 16:50:21 UTC

But there are updates that are relevant to the saxophone community.
One such update concerns "Brian". Brian had posted last year on SOTW
that he was awaiting a Goodson Unison horn. When he finally got it,
he was displeased and sent it back for what he alleged was a promised
refund. The refund wasn't made and Goodson went AWOL from SOTW and
numerous folks reported having a hard time reaching him. Anyone that
offered advice to Brian on the forum was attacked by Goodson's
supporters. Brian was called a liar and those that tried to help him
were branded "trolls". In fact, some of the SOTW columnists and
marketers signed onto an online petition in support of Goodson,
including Tim Price, who you name above. Well, it has been reported
on saxtrolls.net that Brian finally received his full refund from
Goodson after months and months of delay. It has been reported that
he had to retain an attorney in New Orleans to receive satisfaction.
Where are those online supporters and columnists now? That thread was
deleted by SOTW along with any record of Brian's claim. The
administrator of SOTW promised Brian that he would be allowed to post
the results of his claim. I would hope he keeps his word.

Be thankful for a newsgroup that allows the exchange of such relevant
information.

BIG DADDY

2004-01-23 20:32:53 UTC

I agree with Grumps wholeheartedly, although I've been know to be a Goodson
critic! Especially that "cryogenics crap" of a few years ago, a definite
scam.
This newsgroup is the only place that one can express them selves to other
sax players around the world and obtain helpful information from which one
can base a decision, whether to buy from someone, repair from another, buy a
specific horn, reed, mouth piece etc. I found it to be most informative.
Occasionally there is some animosity over a personal deal, but mostly it is
all very helpful.
If you don't like a thread, then don't read it! pretty simple, but speaking
for myself, I've found the Goodson thread rather satisfying as I took a lot
of flack a few years back from his supporters.

That being said, I think that it is very relevant that we inform each other
of unfair practices and I encourage any to report this kind of behavior to
the newsgroup.

My 2 cents,

BD

Post by Grumps

'Extremely

Post by Grumps

Post by Simon T
insensitive' - man, this Goodson flame has been going for months... almost
as long as one of those 'Can Kenny G play the sax?' trolls. Move on !
Simon

But there are updates that are relevant to the saxophone community.
One such update concerns "Brian". Brian had posted last year on SOTW
that he was awaiting a Goodson Unison horn. When he finally got it,
he was displeased and sent it back for what he alleged was a promised
refund. The refund wasn't made and Goodson went AWOL from SOTW and
numerous folks reported having a hard time reaching him. Anyone that
offered advice to Brian on the forum was attacked by Goodson's
supporters. Brian was called a liar and those that tried to help him
were branded "trolls". In fact, some of the SOTW columnists and
marketers signed onto an online petition in support of Goodson,
including Tim Price, who you name above. Well, it has been reported
on saxtrolls.net that Brian finally received his full refund from
Goodson after months and months of delay. It has been reported that
he had to retain an attorney in New Orleans to receive satisfaction.
Where are those online supporters and columnists now? That thread was
deleted by SOTW along with any record of Brian's claim. The
administrator of SOTW promised Brian that he would be allowed to post
the results of his claim. I would hope he keeps his word.
Be thankful for a newsgroup that allows the exchange of such relevant
information.

Kneel Jung

2004-01-25 19:25:18 UTC

Post by Grumps
In fact, some of the SOTW columnists and
marketers signed onto an online petition in support of Goodson,
including Tim Price, who you name above.

snip <<<

Let me say first of all that Tim Price is
not a " Steve Goodson supporter " .

I've been on this NG for 6 years and prior
to that didn't know Tim Price personally,
only referencing him as a Saxophone
Journal reviewer/columnist . It wasn't
until I had moved to Pennsylvania, and
consequently stumbled onto this NG as
a function of signing with America Online.

Happenstance, I believe is the term .

Up until this time, I didn't know him as
a person or as a musician; didn't know
what a truly heavyweight-caliber unknown
this man is; multi faceted/directional in
his music and ability to *seriously* play
a multitude of disparate reed instruments.

He's also a great human being, IMNHO.
I know him in person as a human being
and a friend, for some time, now.

I was over at SOTW when it first got
started, and at that time I thought it
was a really friendly place to check in
and hang out, and I told Tim that he might
check it out. This was around 1999,2000,
or so . Tim expressed little interest at
that time.. and I quote him as saying
that he " didn't go there much.. "

Given the way that the internet works
and what I'd witnessed here @ alt.sax
I thought a guy like Tim, who seemed
willing to devote time and input to this
internet craziness, would enjoy it a bit
more there .

It was not too long after that Tim, got
invlolved with his first tentative posting
there as an EDUCATOR , with viable
& imminently usable info on jazz harmony;
which is a huge part of what he's about,
but not his only strong areas as a musician.

All this innuendo about marketers and
self-promotion blurs the reality that Tim
has always periodically posted an AD
_here_ for study . Before you guys were
on the *scene* .

In the big and small picture I see no
inherent wrong here . Here is a man that
is exceedingly qualified to instruct those
from ages 8 to 88 at all levels; not just
the saxophone, but all the woodwinds,
and about music in general.

Is that self-promotion or offering a service,
and maybe even something more; that
intangible thing, a gift that has no price ?

I won't disparage SOTW or this NG .
Mainly because in the larger picture due
to the largely artificial nature of these
communications, I always take it all with
a grain of salt, it doesn't hold a huge
importance for me IN MY LIFE .

Having said that, allow me to clarify by
stating that with that frame of mind I'm
not a major regular participant of these
virtual communities, as some are, and if
it adds richly to their existence, OK,
that's great, but ... I don't have that much
time. myself .

When I got on the internet and started to
cruise around areas like SOTW, *here*,
& the Sax Ring, when it had a few humble
websites on its roster, I came upon
Keith Henson's Jazz sax site, and it was
there I discovered some interesting info
about Mr Steve Goodson .

Apparently, he hosed this guy on an
overhaul, much in the same manner that
Andy Warr is getting hosed currently .

This was around, 7, 8 years ago ..

Now, I really don't have much more to
say about that, but the only thing I
would say is really know somebody's
rep before you send a horn long distance.

Get actual references from customers
who have had work done . Henson's
experience was enough to make me totally
indifferent, or to be more frank, leery about
having Steve perform one of his magic
overhauls on one of my instruments .

The thing is, there are usually good
techs, locally, but everybody wants
something special, the magic bullet that
will transport their playing just because
they have a "Grand Master overhaul"

Also, Grumps, and other saxtrolls :

Andy Warr hasn't bothered to mention
this publicly, but Tim did what he could
to help by emailing Goodson, apparently
to no avail .

I've wondered why Tim bothers with this
internet business; why he participates,
since a lot of guys of his caliber musically
simply do not; and NOT because they are
"above it", but because people that like
to use these forums for other reasons
make it real drag and any player of repute
would just bypass it, as I'm sure scores
have .

I shouldn't say this but Tim's told me
many times in private that certain people
over at SOTW, regular posters have tried
to bust his balls over the smallest thing.
It bugs him.. because it's so obviously
directed at him because of who he is
or what people " think " he represents .

I will say in the case of the disgruntled
Saxtrolls, you have lumped him in with
the columnists and marketers, so he's
automatically :::suspect::: .

In reality he was inspired to have an
opportunity to give FREE information
to anyone interested in playing their
instrument better . This is info that
if you studied with him thru the mail
or in person would cost money .

He put his personal time into getting
the lessons together and posting them.
If no one ever contacted him privately
for study .. so be it . The info is archived,
available to all .

Another thing that has been an issue
is that while you have all of the typical
banter, off topic and on about various
things on forums like these, particularly
SOTW, it's puzzled Tim that guys and
gals rarely engage him in any dialogue
about music , that's why he is there.

Basically, I told him 2,3years back that
the average bear on these forums that
is a "regular" is less about music and
more about hardware; e.g. talking about
equipment incessantly or after a time
preferring to talk politics, food, being a troll
busting people's balls, etc.

One thing I noticed particularly @ SOTW
a few years back was that the Dijaldi's
of the world, after a time, come in to strictly
"""socialize""", and be cute and clever .

Is this wrong ?

Nope. I have no problem with that .

But a lot of threads I would read, there,
would have nothing to do with saxophone
or music, and you would start to see this
other clique thing forming, much like in
real life, ironically

It's a real curiousity that people can form
these bonds __online __ . But that's
a different subject .

Dijaldi, didn't you travel cross-country
to hook up with a woman you met on the
internet ?

That's about as sketchy as sending a
horn to Steve Goodson, but to each his
own, I suppose ... LOL !

As far as this self-promotion thing :

The only person that I noticed of the
Columnists that wasn't trying to sell
anything was Tim Price; correct me if
I'm wrong .

Jody Espina never comes in to talk
about music.

Goodson never talked about music.

Paul Coats rarely if ever talked about
music, for music's sake.

Just examples, and I could be wrong as
I don't really study that forum a great
deal anymore, and I post only occasionally

Nothing inherently bad about that, BTW,
but Tim's contribution is music .

I don't know what the particulars of
your experiences are with the people
that run things there behind the scenes,
but on the face of it doesn't seem to be
that big of a deal .

I've gotten at times bored with SOTW
and this forum, so I'd leave for periods of
time . No big deal .

This saxtrolls site could be OK, but ..

I thought it was a fluke for a few
weeks, until I clicked the hyperlink and
saw it was an actual site, then I checked
the content Wow !

You folks were really over there licking
your collective wounds .. it looked like
an AA meeting , for christsakes ..

" I too was banned from SOTW "

All in all, you have to wonder about these
things in the bigger picture .

On the flipside I see a lot of the same
banter, it's a nice little sewing circle for
the *big dogs there* . It doesn't interest
me, but hey, this is the internet so knock
yourselves out .

I did notice some snide remarks though
about Tim Price with a sarcastic use of
LARGE FONTS mocking his writing
style .

Fine .. but the main thing I'm stressing
here is that in my opinion this animosity
is coming from his presumed collusion
with the "powers that be" to protect
Steve Goodson's crooked practices .

I've already gone on record as saying I
think Goodson's jive, thru and thru, and
have for awhile . I've even said this to
Tim privately in the past, and his thought
was " He's always treated me with respect"

I don't speak for Tim on that score and
imply nothing, but I KNOW that he's not
a shill and doesn't sweep dirt under the
rug ..

Goodson can be a charmer; hence his
sucking people in on the Unison deal,
which I had no interest in as I have a
nice stash of horns.

After a certain point no mouthpiece/horn is
gonna play itself . No matter what level you
play at you have GOT to learn to play
music.. no excuses, gadgets or magic
bullets, horns or overhauls is gonna
save your ass on the bandstand if you
cannot play.

I did detect the sarcasm on that recent
thread when TP posted upcoming gigs
he has pending . The whole saxtrolls
crew came in saying nothing about the
music, just talking to each other; making
there presence known; like a little gang.

TP's guilty of self-promotion, right ?

(((((((( M-a-r-k-e-t-i-n-g )))))))))

If someone has gigs that they would like
people to attend, I would think it would
be normal to announce them .

It looked like an invitation to fellow sax
participants, no more no less .

Grumps, you got a gig ?
Dijaldi ??
Shang ????

You SHOULD post them, so people have
the opportunity to hear you play .

It might be enlightening as to the purpose
of why I _ think_ we all show up on these
forums to begin with .

Dave

Grumps

2004-01-26 03:51:52 UTC

Post by Kneel Jung
Grumps, you got a gig ?
You SHOULD post them, so people have
the opportunity to hear you play .
It might be enlightening as to the purpose
of why I _ think_ we all show up on these
forums to begin with .
Dave

Dave,
Dig this. The last time I posted about one of my gigs on STOW I got
veiled threats from both Goodson and Price that they were sending guys
or bringing guys and the tone wasn't pleasant. The end result was the
club being shut down by an ASCAP inquiry. Go ask Price why he posted
that link to a two year old web page containing personal information
concerning my father on SOTW; my father who is not a saxophone player
and has never posted there.

Tim Price signed that online petition and has endorsed products and/or
services of Goodson. Are you saying he's rescinded that support?

Mark

2004-01-26 05:29:05 UTC

Post by Grumps
In fact, some of the SOTW columnists and
marketers signed onto an online petition in support of Goodson,
including Tim Price, who you name above.

snip <<<

Let me say first of all that Tim Price is
not a " Steve Goodson supporter " .
I've been on this NG for 6 years and prior
to that didn't know Tim Price personally,
only referencing him as a Saxophone
Journal reviewer/columnist . It wasn't
until I had moved to Pennsylvania, and
consequently stumbled onto this NG as
a function of signing with America Online.
Happenstance, I believe is the term .
Up until this time, I didn't know him as
a person or as a musician; didn't know
what a truly heavyweight-caliber unknown
this man is; multi faceted/directional in
his music and ability to *seriously* play
a multitude of disparate reed instruments.
He's also a great human being, IMNHO.
I know him in person as a human being
and a friend, for some time, now.
I was over at SOTW when it first got
started, and at that time I thought it
was a really friendly place to check in
and hang out, and I told Tim that he might
check it out. This was around 1999,2000,
or so . Tim expressed little interest at
that time.. and I quote him as saying
that he " didn't go there much.. "
Given the way that the internet works
I thought a guy like Tim, who seemed
willing to devote time and input to this
internet craziness, would enjoy it a bit
more there .
It was not too long after that Tim, got
invlolved with his first tentative posting
there as an EDUCATOR , with viable
& imminently usable info on jazz harmony;
which is a huge part of what he's about,
but not his only strong areas as a musician.
All this innuendo about marketers and
self-promotion blurs the reality that Tim
has always periodically posted an AD
_here_ for study . Before you guys were
on the *scene* .
In the big and small picture I see no
inherent wrong here . Here is a man that
is exceedingly qualified to instruct those
from ages 8 to 88 at all levels; not just
the saxophone, but all the woodwinds,
and about music in general.
Is that self-promotion or offering a service,
and maybe even something more; that
intangible thing, a gift that has no price ?
I won't disparage SOTW or this NG .
Mainly because in the larger picture due
to the largely artificial nature of these
communications, I always take it all with
a grain of salt, it doesn't hold a huge
importance for me IN MY LIFE .
Having said that, allow me to clarify by
stating that with that frame of mind I'm
not a major regular participant of these
virtual communities, as some are, and if
it adds richly to their existence, OK,
that's great, but ... I don't have that much
time. myself .
When I got on the internet and started to
cruise around areas like SOTW, *here*,
& the Sax Ring, when it had a few humble
websites on its roster, I came upon
Keith Henson's Jazz sax site, and it was
there I discovered some interesting info
about Mr Steve Goodson .
Apparently, he hosed this guy on an
overhaul, much in the same manner that
Andy Warr is getting hosed currently .
This was around, 7, 8 years ago ..
Now, I really don't have much more to
say about that, but the only thing I
would say is really know somebody's
rep before you send a horn long distance.
Get actual references from customers
who have had work done . Henson's
experience was enough to make me totally
indifferent, or to be more frank, leery about
having Steve perform one of his magic
overhauls on one of my instruments .
The thing is, there are usually good
techs, locally, but everybody wants
something special, the magic bullet that
will transport their playing just because
they have a "Grand Master overhaul"
Andy Warr hasn't bothered to mention
this publicly, but Tim did what he could
to help by emailing Goodson, apparently
to no avail .
I've wondered why Tim bothers with this
internet business; why he participates,
since a lot of guys of his caliber musically
simply do not; and NOT because they are
"above it", but because people that like
to use these forums for other reasons
make it real drag and any player of repute
would just bypass it, as I'm sure scores
have .
I shouldn't say this but Tim's told me
many times in private that certain people
over at SOTW, regular posters have tried
to bust his balls over the smallest thing.
It bugs him.. because it's so obviously
directed at him because of who he is
or what people " think " he represents .
I will say in the case of the disgruntled
Saxtrolls, you have lumped him in with
the columnists and marketers, so he's
automatically :::suspect::: .
In reality he was inspired to have an
opportunity to give FREE information
to anyone interested in playing their
instrument better . This is info that
if you studied with him thru the mail
or in person would cost money .
He put his personal time into getting
the lessons together and posting them.
If no one ever contacted him privately
for study .. so be it . The info is archived,
available to all .
Another thing that has been an issue
is that while you have all of the typical
banter, off topic and on about various
things on forums like these, particularly
SOTW, it's puzzled Tim that guys and
gals rarely engage him in any dialogue
about music , that's why he is there.
Basically, I told him 2,3years back that
the average bear on these forums that
is a "regular" is less about music and
more about hardware; e.g. talking about
equipment incessantly or after a time
preferring to talk politics, food, being a troll
busting people's balls, etc.
a few years back was that the Dijaldi's
of the world, after a time, come in to strictly
"""socialize""", and be cute and clever .
Is this wrong ?
Nope. I have no problem with that .
But a lot of threads I would read, there,
would have nothing to do with saxophone
or music, and you would start to see this
other clique thing forming, much like in
real life, ironically
It's a real curiousity that people can form
these bonds __online __ . But that's
a different subject .
Dijaldi, didn't you travel cross-country
to hook up with a woman you met on the
internet ?
That's about as sketchy as sending a
horn to Steve Goodson, but to each his
own, I suppose ... LOL !
The only person that I noticed of the
Columnists that wasn't trying to sell
anything was Tim Price; correct me if
I'm wrong .
Jody Espina never comes in to talk
about music.
Goodson never talked about music.
Paul Coats rarely if ever talked about
music, for music's sake.
Just examples, and I could be wrong as
I don't really study that forum a great
deal anymore, and I post only occasionally
Nothing inherently bad about that, BTW,
but Tim's contribution is music .
I don't know what the particulars of
your experiences are with the people
that run things there behind the scenes,
but on the face of it doesn't seem to be
that big of a deal .
I've gotten at times bored with SOTW
and this forum, so I'd leave for periods of
time . No big deal .
This saxtrolls site could be OK, but ..
I thought it was a fluke for a few
weeks, until I clicked the hyperlink and
saw it was an actual site, then I checked
the content Wow !
You folks were really over there licking
your collective wounds .. it looked like
an AA meeting , for christsakes ..
" I too was banned from SOTW "
All in all, you have to wonder about these
things in the bigger picture .
On the flipside I see a lot of the same
banter, it's a nice little sewing circle for
the *big dogs there* . It doesn't interest
me, but hey, this is the internet so knock
yourselves out .
I did notice some snide remarks though
about Tim Price with a sarcastic use of
LARGE FONTS mocking his writing
style .
Fine .. but the main thing I'm stressing
here is that in my opinion this animosity
is coming from his presumed collusion
with the "powers that be" to protect
Steve Goodson's crooked practices .
I've already gone on record as saying I
think Goodson's jive, thru and thru, and
have for awhile . I've even said this to
Tim privately in the past, and his thought
was " He's always treated me with respect"
I don't speak for Tim on that score and
imply nothing, but I KNOW that he's not
a shill and doesn't sweep dirt under the
rug ..
Goodson can be a charmer; hence his
sucking people in on the Unison deal,
which I had no interest in as I have a
nice stash of horns.
After a certain point no mouthpiece/horn is
gonna play itself . No matter what level you
play at you have GOT to learn to play
music.. no excuses, gadgets or magic
bullets, horns or overhauls is gonna
save your ass on the bandstand if you
cannot play.
I did detect the sarcasm on that recent
thread when TP posted upcoming gigs
he has pending . The whole saxtrolls
crew came in saying nothing about the
music, just talking to each other; making
there presence known; like a little gang.
TP's guilty of self-promotion, right ?
(((((((( M-a-r-k-e-t-i-n-g )))))))))
If someone has gigs that they would like
people to attend, I would think it would
be normal to announce them .
It looked like an invitation to fellow sax
participants, no more no less .
Grumps, you got a gig ?
Dijaldi ??
Shang ????
You SHOULD post them, so people have
the opportunity to hear you play .
It might be enlightening as to the purpose
of why I _ think_ we all show up on these
forums to begin with .
Dave

Kneel Jung Dave, I could not agree with you more on your post about
Tim Price. I also love something Tim posted once when someone was
asking for equipment advice specifically mouthpiece, I believe Tim got
it from one of his many musical forefather/mentors Sonny Stitt...."It
ain't the arrow, it's the indian"

Grumps

2004-01-26 18:31:16 UTC

Post by Mark
Kneel Jung Dave, I could not agree with you more on your post about
Tim Price. I also love something Tim posted once when someone was
asking for equipment advice specifically mouthpiece, I believe Tim got
it from one of his many musical forefather/mentors Sonny Stitt...."It
ain't the arrow, it's the indian"

Hi Mark,
I seem to recall one time on SOTW where I questioned Goodson on his
imported sax. Next thing I know my non-related posts on SOTW were
being attacked. One particular such attack was by someone using the
screen name "cynical". Turned out that "cynical" was you. You used
that screen name to do a bit of trolling yourself, now didn't you?

Neal

2004-01-26 21:31:55 UTC

Interjected comment, not meant to be construed as directed at the
replied-to poster.

At this point the discussion is turning into a fight/witchhunt.

I don't speak for the whole newsgroup, but for myself when I respectfully
ask that this sort of accusation and mudflinging be put into a more
appropriate forum.

While expressing a concern with some experience relevant to the discussion
here is welcome and important, unproductive griping and snipping on Usenet
will not solve the problems between the parties.

I personally ask that this particular line of discussion cease.

Grumps

2004-01-27 04:43:58 UTC

Post by Neal
I personally ask that this particular line of discussion cease.

Forgive me Neal, but just as my post might have offended you, to see
someone I know to be a troll* posting as a voice of reason deeply
offends me. I came to this board and got caught up in some old
business and old scores. As I have no long term record on this board,
I'm sure my credibility with those that don't know me is zilch. I'll
try to keep that in mind and post accordingly in the future.

*(proof still existing on the old SOTW archive through User ID #'s,
btw)

Neal

2004-01-27 04:59:18 UTC

Post by Grumps
Forgive me Neal, but just as my post might have offended you,

Not offended by you, but troubled by the long-term effect this type of
exchange would have on the forum.

Post by Grumps
I'm sure my credibility with those that don't know me is zilch. I'll
try to keep that in mind and post accordingly in the future.

There's a *rather* offensive saying which, nonetheless, carries deep
meaning regarding Usenet dissent. Let's just say it compares arguing on
the Internet to competing in the Special Olympics. I suppose we could more
appropriately say that it's like entering a cow-pie eating contest, where
win or lose you're still full of crap...

While I emapthize with anyone who's been wronged, Usenet is not the place
to work through a personal issue.

Shang

2004-01-26 22:00:14 UTC

Kneel, I don't want to have to re-hash ALL of what went on at SOTW
but I would like to add a few thoughts.
I agree, mostly, on your assessment of the merchants and columnists at
SOTW and
I understand your desire to stick up for a friend.
Nevertheless, Tim DID play a role in some things that you may simply
have missed out on- because, as you stated, you weren't around all
that muchor you may not have been around at some very crucial
moments.

Many of the folks who frequent the site

http://www.saxtrolls.net/forum

were, indeed, banned from participation at SOTW- during the highly
volatile point in time when SOTW was being abused by a few to set up
the launch of the SG Unison hornwith the clientele of SOTW being
considered nothing more than a huge pool of customers.

There were a damn lot of nasty politics going on there at that
point- some along the lines of:"you
scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours". Members who went
against-the-grain in the interest of public service to saxplayers were
not only slandered publically, there some being threatened on SOTW
or on the yahoo SOTW site and there were members who received
telephoned threats as a result of their uncomfortable public stance
toward a certain merchant.

Before and during this time, Tim and others DID align themselves with
SG.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=Ia764.6653%24o97.60952%40news3.mia&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsteve%2Bgoodson%2Btim%2Bprice%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl%3Den

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=_QxM5.8128%24z93.35893%40news1.mco&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsteve%2Bgoodson%2Btim%2Bprice%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl%3Den

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=steve+goodson+tim+price&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=20010315203939.18917.00001254%40ng-ci1.aol.com&rnum=5

there is more... just search for the two names in tandem, if you wish.

Unfortunately, Tim also never came clean on this story:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=OA0V7.20754%24BX4.1237121%40e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsteve%2Bgoodson%2Btim%2Bprice%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3DOA0V7.20754%2524BX4.1237121%2540e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com%26rnum%3D2

Sorry, man... as I said, I truly understand sticking up for a friend.
But we are ALL human beings and we all make mistakes from time to time
in this life. Tim is no exception, nor am I. I don't think that I am
wrong on this.
I do wish that he had made a public stand back then against the type
of tactics that some of his apparent "friends" were using to attempt
to silence their supposed foes.
Maybe that's all water under the bridge, now
but we are still seeing the re-percussions of what politics were
played back then.
Some men of conscience have reflected upon what went on back then-and
their role in what actually went on.

I'm not going to name names but for those who pay attention there are
some good men (and, possibly women) who became mysteriously silent-
esp. on the Goodson forum- after having reflected upon their role in
that whole incredible scam.

Those people really have earned the respect of those who DO pay
attention and I want them to know that.

Post by Mark

Post by Grumps
In fact, some of the SOTW columnists and
marketers signed onto an online petition in support of Goodson,
including Tim Price, who you name above.

snip <<<

Let me say first of all that Tim Price is
not a " Steve Goodson supporter " .
I've been on this NG for 6 years and prior
to that didn't know Tim Price personally,
only referencing him as a Saxophone
Journal reviewer/columnist . It wasn't
until I had moved to Pennsylvania, and
consequently stumbled onto this NG as
a function of signing with America Online.
Happenstance, I believe is the term .
Up until this time, I didn't know him as
a person or as a musician; didn't know
what a truly heavyweight-caliber unknown
this man is; multi faceted/directional in
his music and ability to *seriously* play
a multitude of disparate reed instruments.
He's also a great human being, IMNHO.
I know him in person as a human being
and a friend, for some time, now.
I was over at SOTW when it first got
started, and at that time I thought it
was a really friendly place to check in
and hang out, and I told Tim that he might
check it out. This was around 1999,2000,
or so . Tim expressed little interest at
that time.. and I quote him as saying
that he " didn't go there much.. "
Given the way that the internet works
I thought a guy like Tim, who seemed
willing to devote time and input to this
internet craziness, would enjoy it a bit
more there .
It was not too long after that Tim, got
invlolved with his first tentative posting
there as an EDUCATOR , with viable
& imminently usable info on jazz harmony;
which is a huge part of what he's about,
but not his only strong areas as a musician.
All this innuendo about marketers and
self-promotion blurs the reality that Tim
has always periodically posted an AD
_here_ for study . Before you guys were
on the *scene* .
In the big and small picture I see no
inherent wrong here . Here is a man that
is exceedingly qualified to instruct those
from ages 8 to 88 at all levels; not just
the saxophone, but all the woodwinds,
and about music in general.
Is that self-promotion or offering a service,
and maybe even something more; that
intangible thing, a gift that has no price ?
I won't disparage SOTW or this NG .
Mainly because in the larger picture due
to the largely artificial nature of these
communications, I always take it all with
a grain of salt, it doesn't hold a huge
importance for me IN MY LIFE .
Having said that, allow me to clarify by
stating that with that frame of mind I'm
not a major regular participant of these
virtual communities, as some are, and if
it adds richly to their existence, OK,
that's great, but ... I don't have that much
time. myself .
When I got on the internet and started to
cruise around areas like SOTW, *here*,
& the Sax Ring, when it had a few humble
websites on its roster, I came upon
Keith Henson's Jazz sax site, and it was
there I discovered some interesting info
about Mr Steve Goodson .
Apparently, he hosed this guy on an
overhaul, much in the same manner that
Andy Warr is getting hosed currently .
This was around, 7, 8 years ago ..
Now, I really don't have much more to
say about that, but the only thing I
would say is really know somebody's
rep before you send a horn long distance.
Get actual references from customers
who have had work done . Henson's
experience was enough to make me totally
indifferent, or to be more frank, leery about
having Steve perform one of his magic
overhauls on one of my instruments .
The thing is, there are usually good
techs, locally, but everybody wants
something special, the magic bullet that
will transport their playing just because
they have a "Grand Master overhaul"
Andy Warr hasn't bothered to mention
this publicly, but Tim did what he could
to help by emailing Goodson, apparently
to no avail .
I've wondered why Tim bothers with this
internet business; why he participates,
since a lot of guys of his caliber musically
simply do not; and NOT because they are
"above it", but because people that like
to use these forums for other reasons
make it real drag and any player of repute
would just bypass it, as I'm sure scores
have .
I shouldn't say this but Tim's told me
many times in private that certain people
over at SOTW, regular posters have tried
to bust his balls over the smallest thing.
It bugs him.. because it's so obviously
directed at him because of who he is
or what people " think " he represents .
I will say in the case of the disgruntled
Saxtrolls, you have lumped him in with
the columnists and marketers, so he's
automatically :::suspect::: .
In reality he was inspired to have an
opportunity to give FREE information
to anyone interested in playing their
instrument better . This is info that
if you studied with him thru the mail
or in person would cost money .
He put his personal time into getting
the lessons together and posting them.
If no one ever contacted him privately
for study .. so be it . The info is archived,
available to all .
Another thing that has been an issue
is that while you have all of the typical
banter, off topic and on about various
things on forums like these, particularly
SOTW, it's puzzled Tim that guys and
gals rarely engage him in any dialogue
about music , that's why he is there.
Basically, I told him 2,3years back that
the average bear on these forums that
is a "regular" is less about music and
more about hardware; e.g. talking about
equipment incessantly or after a time
preferring to talk politics, food, being a troll
busting people's balls, etc.
a few years back was that the Dijaldi's
of the world, after a time, come in to strictly
"""socialize""", and be cute and clever .
Is this wrong ?
Nope. I have no problem with that .
But a lot of threads I would read, there,
would have nothing to do with saxophone
or music, and you would start to see this
other clique thing forming, much like in
real life, ironically
It's a real curiousity that people can form
these bonds __online __ . But that's
a different subject .
Dijaldi, didn't you travel cross-country
to hook up with a woman you met on the
internet ?
That's about as sketchy as sending a
horn to Steve Goodson, but to each his
own, I suppose ... LOL !
The only person that I noticed of the
Columnists that wasn't trying to sell
anything was Tim Price; correct me if
I'm wrong .
Jody Espina never comes in to talk
about music.
Goodson never talked about music.
Paul Coats rarely if ever talked about
music, for music's sake.
Just examples, and I could be wrong as
I don't really study that forum a great
deal anymore, and I post only occasionally
Nothing inherently bad about that, BTW,
but Tim's contribution is music .
I don't know what the particulars of
your experiences are with the people
that run things there behind the scenes,
but on the face of it doesn't seem to be
that big of a deal .
I've gotten at times bored with SOTW
and this forum, so I'd leave for periods of
time . No big deal .
This saxtrolls site could be OK, but ..
I thought it was a fluke for a few
weeks, until I clicked the hyperlink and
saw it was an actual site, then I checked
the content Wow !
You folks were really over there licking
your collective wounds .. it looked like
an AA meeting , for christsakes ..
" I too was banned from SOTW "
All in all, you have to wonder about these
things in the bigger picture .
On the flipside I see a lot of the same
banter, it's a nice little sewing circle for
the *big dogs there* . It doesn't interest
me, but hey, this is the internet so knock
yourselves out .
I did notice some snide remarks though
about Tim Price with a sarcastic use of
LARGE FONTS mocking his writing
style .
Fine .. but the main thing I'm stressing
here is that in my opinion this animosity
is coming from his presumed collusion
with the "powers that be" to protect
Steve Goodson's crooked practices .
I've already gone on record as saying I
think Goodson's jive, thru and thru, and
have for awhile . I've even said this to
Tim privately in the past, and his thought
was " He's always treated me with respect"
I don't speak for Tim on that score and
imply nothing, but I KNOW that he's not
a shill and doesn't sweep dirt under the
rug ..
Goodson can be a charmer; hence his
sucking people in on the Unison deal,
which I had no interest in as I have a
nice stash of horns.
After a certain point no mouthpiece/horn is
gonna play itself . No matter what level you
play at you have GOT to learn to play
music.. no excuses, gadgets or magic
bullets, horns or overhauls is gonna
save your ass on the bandstand if you
cannot play.
I did detect the sarcasm on that recent
thread when TP posted upcoming gigs
he has pending . The whole saxtrolls
crew came in saying nothing about the
music, just talking to each other; making
there presence known; like a little gang.
TP's guilty of self-promotion, right ?
(((((((( M-a-r-k-e-t-i-n-g )))))))))
If someone has gigs that they would like
people to attend, I would think it would
be normal to announce them .
It looked like an invitation to fellow sax
participants, no more no less .
Grumps, you got a gig ?
Dijaldi ??
Shang ????
You SHOULD post them, so people have
the opportunity to hear you play .
It might be enlightening as to the purpose
of why I _ think_ we all show up on these
forums to begin with .
Dave

Kneel Jung

2004-01-27 01:41:23 UTC

Kneel, I don't want to have to re-hash ALL of what went on at SOTW…

I think you should . At this point it
looks like a directive towards a character
assasination, with mailice aforethought.
-------

I understand your desire to stick up for a friend.

I'm not really *sticking up* for Tim.
He's a big boy and can more than handle
his battles; And.. I don't really see this
so much as a battle; unlike yourself .
-----

Nevertheless, Tim DID play a role in some things that you may simply
have missed out on- because, as you stated, you weren't around all
that much—or you may not have been around at some very crucial
moments.

Exactly what ROLE is he alledged to have
played ? Is Tim in business with SG ?

Does he have input into which guys
get there horns back? Which ones
get someone else's horns back ? LOL !!
Goodson's antics go back a little further
than you might realize .

Many of the folks who frequent the site
http://www.saxtrolls.net/forum
were, indeed, banned from participation at SOTW- during the highly
volatile point in time when SOTW was being abused by a few to set up
the launch of the SG Unison horn…with the clientele of SOTW being
considered nothing more than a huge pool of customers.

I think regardless of how that site was
being setup it's never mattered to me,
personally . To those it does, I have a
certain curiousity as to WHY ?

Example : Steve Goodson has never
impressed me; or to be more specific,
his presence there however, dominant
was never something I gave much thought
to .
I think those that, especially in such
a virtual reality/delayed communications-
type of dynamic, put a lot of stock in
what he had to say or sell, were lacking
in real-world experience and options .

I did see at various periods a big push
for Runyon products, Unison horns, yada
yada yada .. So what ?

I don't use that crap, never did ..

In that same space you could find all the usual topics to discuss :

*Mk VI serial numbers
*Dexter Gordon's equipment
* who's better: Sanborn or Bird
*Rico or Rico Royal, ad nauseum

Everyone brings to the table what they
have to put on the table, others come
to eat, others come to just smell the food.

Like I said, I was on that forum when it
first started . I like to talk about vintage
horns to an extent, and where the horn is
concerned, my favorite Jazz players, and
recordings. That's my main offering over
the years .

I might have went into the Runyon section
twice since it was added. It's not my trip
and so if Paul Coats is pushing Runyons
and Antigua winds sopranos, what the
fuck do I care ????

I don't .

Goodson's revolutionizing the saxophone ?

I don't beleive it .

Many did .

There's one born every minute .

Just because we all play the saxophone
doesn't mean that I automatically relate
to you . You're an Ace Cannon fanatic?

......I'm a Sonny Criss "supporter"

Who cares ..

Another thing I noticed at SOTW and
other internet/usenet forums is that
people like to get into sidebar discussions
and evenetually the focus gets shifted
away from what the forum's supposed
to be about . It's not inherently wrong,
but if people get into each others political
views and comes to vent their personal
issues/ look for sympathy because they
suffer from ADD depression, don't want to
practice .... whatever their major hangups
are .. I get really turned off by that .

I started to see another dynamic where
it was like a chatroom, you'd be talking
about Eric Dolphy and the other 4 cats
on the thread are just trying to outwit
each other on a nonrelated tangential
issue .

With that said, SOTW had become very boring
for me at times, as does this NG. No biggie,
because I have a life . If they did away with
these forums it wouldn't matter one jot .

As far as banning and censoring :
Many people who shall go unamed have come
there to rumble & they were banned, or if people were trying to start
trouble/argue in a hostile manner they were banned . In one sense, I can
understand, at least from Harris POV, since he set that forum up with the best
of intentions, and it had its moments, early on; hence my suggesting that Tim
come over there, years back it might be a good place to hang in ::Cyberspace:::
.

Tim always likened this place to a" hip bar " ; which I frankly never agreed
with since I've frequented hipper spots, myself .. : )
But again this is just the internet, so I'm not looking to make friends, fall
in love with a
stranger, or any of that dubious kind of behavior .

In other words I don't come in with high expectations;

Back to the point : I saw people at various times people complaining about
being banned/ censored(not you) and kind of found it humourous that they had an
emotional
investment in these virtual communities .

Once you registered you were allowed to participate. In the most broad terms,
you're being invited to a party of sorts . You can't kick out the hosts, but
they can ask you to leave. You can't escort the bouncers out but you can get
_bounced_ .

Ever been thrown out of a bar ? LOL !!!!!!!!

I think even before some of you guys showed up they were starting to get itchy
trigger fingers on censoring people attacking each other ; what can I say ?

It didn't bother me much, since it was a private forum .

Sorry, man... as I said, I truly understand sticking up for a friend.
But we are ALL human beings and we all make mistakes from time to time
in this life. Tim is no exception, nor am I. I don't think that I am
wrong on this.
I do wish that he had made a public stand back then against the type
of tactics that some of his apparent "friends" were using to attempt
to silence their supposed foes.

Wow that stuff you Googled up .. what does that suggest ?
IOW, what ```spin``` are you trying to put on that ?

It's funny that you try and dig up something to prove.... what ?

What ???

Oh, wait I got it .

Tim was in on the big Unison SG Model Scam?
That he pocketed half the deposits himself, right??

Yes all this time he's been posing as a Selmer Clinician, when
he secretly is a Unison clinician .. LOL !!!!!

Listen, I have to laugh at some of this stuff, I because this is like some big
crusade to out the wrong-doers who don't stand
up for the sax community, and who won't tell the truth and who align themselves
with evil .

Which one of the saxtrolls got ripped pff on this deal ?

No matter, because that's not my point .

"Repercussions from politics that got played ">>

what are the repercussions , Shang .

you guys and gals went over and got your support group thing going on, and you
feel vindicated, somewhat . But you won't be
satisfied until ....

This is like a Don Quixote kind of thing mixed in with a healthy amount of
_projection_ .

``Tim Price threatened to come to my gig ``
and what ? SIT IN ????

So then, you, threaten to come to his gig ?

BWA HA HA HA HA HA !!!

That would be really interesting to see how you sound, --->>on your instrument
.
It might say more about you than any of this *victim verbiage* .

Dave

Grumps

2004-01-27 04:33:25 UTC

Post by Kneel Jung
``Tim Price threatened to come to my gig ``
and what ? SIT IN ????

Some folks wait for an invite.

Shang

2004-01-27 21:43:43 UTC

All public information, "Dave".

Kneel, I don't want to have to re-hash ALL of what went on at SOTW…

I think you should . At this point it
looks like a directive towards a character
assasination, with mailice aforethought.
-------

I understand your desire to stick up for a friend.

I'm not really *sticking up* for Tim.
He's a big boy and can more than handle
his battles; And.. I don't really see this
so much as a battle; unlike yourself .
-----

Exactly what ROLE is he alledged to have
played ? Is Tim in business with SG ?
Does he have input into which guys
get there horns back? Which ones
get someone else's horns back ? LOL !!
Goodson's antics go back a little further
than you might realize .

I think regardless of how that site was
being setup it's never mattered to me,
personally . To those it does, I have a
certain curiousity as to WHY ?
Example : Steve Goodson has never
impressed me; or to be more specific,
his presence there however, dominant
was never something I gave much thought
to .
I think those that, especially in such
a virtual reality/delayed communications-
type of dynamic, put a lot of stock in
what he had to say or sell, were lacking
in real-world experience and options .
I did see at various periods a big push
for Runyon products, Unison horns, yada
yada yada .. So what ?
I don't use that crap, never did ..
*Mk VI serial numbers
*Dexter Gordon's equipment
* who's better: Sanborn or Bird
*Rico or Rico Royal, ad nauseum
Everyone brings to the table what they
have to put on the table, others come
to eat, others come to just smell the food.
Like I said, I was on that forum when it
first started . I like to talk about vintage
horns to an extent, and where the horn is
concerned, my favorite Jazz players, and
recordings. That's my main offering over
the years .
I might have went into the Runyon section
twice since it was added. It's not my trip
and so if Paul Coats is pushing Runyons
and Antigua winds sopranos, what the
fuck do I care ????
I don't .
Goodson's revolutionizing the saxophone ?
I don't beleive it .
Many did .
There's one born every minute .
Just because we all play the saxophone
doesn't mean that I automatically relate
to you . You're an Ace Cannon fanatic?
......I'm a Sonny Criss "supporter"
Who cares ..
Another thing I noticed at SOTW and
other internet/usenet forums is that
people like to get into sidebar discussions
and evenetually the focus gets shifted
away from what the forum's supposed
to be about . It's not inherently wrong,
but if people get into each others political
views and comes to vent their personal
issues/ look for sympathy because they
suffer from ADD depression, don't want to
practice .... whatever their major hangups
are .. I get really turned off by that .
I started to see another dynamic where
it was like a chatroom, you'd be talking
about Eric Dolphy and the other 4 cats
on the thread are just trying to outwit
each other on a nonrelated tangential
issue .
With that said, SOTW had become very boring
for me at times, as does this NG. No biggie,
because I have a life . If they did away with
these forums it wouldn't matter one jot .
Many people who shall go unamed have come
there to rumble & they were banned, or if people were trying to start
trouble/argue in a hostile manner they were banned . In one sense, I can
understand, at least from Harris POV, since he set that forum up with the best
of intentions, and it had its moments, early on; hence my suggesting that Tim
.
Tim always likened this place to a" hip bar " ; which I frankly never agreed
with since I've frequented hipper spots, myself .. : )
But again this is just the internet, so I'm not looking to make friends, fall
in love with a
stranger, or any of that dubious kind of behavior .
In other words I don't come in with high expectations;
Back to the point : I saw people at various times people complaining about
being banned/ censored(not you) and kind of found it humourous that they had an
emotional
investment in these virtual communities .
Once you registered you were allowed to participate. In the most broad terms,
you're being invited to a party of sorts . You can't kick out the hosts, but
they can ask you to leave. You can't escort the bouncers out but you can get
_bounced_ .
Ever been thrown out of a bar ? LOL !!!!!!!!
I think even before some of you guys showed up they were starting to get itchy
trigger fingers on censoring people attacking each other ; what can I say ?
It didn't bother me much, since it was a private forum .

Wow that stuff you Googled up .. what does that suggest ?
IOW, what ```spin``` are you trying to put on that ?
It's funny that you try and dig up something to prove.... what ?
What ???
Oh, wait I got it .
Tim was in on the big Unison SG Model Scam?
That he pocketed half the deposits himself, right??
Yes all this time he's been posing as a Selmer Clinician, when
he secretly is a Unison clinician .. LOL !!!!!
Listen, I have to laugh at some of this stuff, I because this is like some big
crusade to out the wrong-doers who don't stand
up for the sax community, and who won't tell the truth and who align themselves
with evil .
Which one of the saxtrolls got ripped pff on this deal ?
No matter, because that's not my point .

"Repercussions from politics that got played ">>

what are the repercussions , Shang .
you guys and gals went over and got your support group thing going on, and you
feel vindicated, somewhat . But you won't be
satisfied until ....
This is like a Don Quixote kind of thing mixed in with a healthy amount of
_projection_ .
``Tim Price threatened to come to my gig ``
and what ? SIT IN ????
So then, you, threaten to come to his gig ?
BWA HA HA HA HA HA !!!
That would be really interesting to see how you sound, --->>on your instrument
.
It might say more about you than any of this *victim verbiage* .
Dave

Kneel Jung

2004-01-27 23:56:26 UTC

Post by Shang
All public information, "Dave".

Now you're being a bigger idiot than
I took you for .

When you googled up that tired thread,
you really didn't read it, or you ignored
the obvious .

Tom Glusac admitted that he was making
jokes directed at Tim Price . This was
a regular pattern and the only real reason
was that he perceived that Tim was
making it his personal forum .

You're `thanking Tom for that` was about
as weak as I've seen . You needed a
second or two to regroup and think of
" what to do next " In reality he asked
you to shut up and get a life, which is
what you need to do .

Glusac's implication that Tim Price is me
is utter bullshit and he knows it, because
I have done business with his hero Phil
Barone . Me "Dave Williams"

Look at that thread chump, and you'll
see Glusac calling me a sycophant
because I didn't think that Tim deserved
to be harrased for being continually
postive on a NG for many years .

Ironically Tom Glusac to me then and
now is a liar . because if anybody is
a sycophant it was him re: his devotion
to Phil Barone who is far from an angel.

It doesn't really matter who called who,
because the issue is who started it ?

Glusac admits he started it .

He also admits that he really didn't know
Tim .. so what's the motivation ?

Why the potshots from the shadows ?
You figure it out .

The thing is you internet tough guys
think that you can run off at the mouth,
but sometimes it backfires . Last night
neither you or Grumps knew what to
do and because no one else said
anything, you got a little burst of
confidence and tried again to put your
spin on things . You inspid fool .

I think Mark said it best : Just because
someone knows someone doesn't mean
they support what they do .

This googling up public records doesn't
amount to shit; and is a really pathetic
attempt to " out " someone .

You guys have too much time on your
hands . You don't have gigs, you can
probably barely get thru your major scales
and you probably can't even gut laid
unless you drive cross country for some
used up piece of ass !

Give me break, "SHANG"

or is this Palo ??

Neal

2004-01-28 00:34:38 UTC

Post by Shang
All public information, "Dave".

Give me break, "SHANG"
or is this Palo ??

This is a Usenet newsgroup concerning saxophones, NOT an elementary school
playground.

Again, I speak for myself, not for the ng. Knock it off. Take your pissing
match somewhere else. This sort of bickering is off-topic for this ng, and
what's more you are getting extremely annoying.

Please stop this catfight, or else I shall plonk you, and encourage others
to do the same.

P. Tung

2004-01-28 01:31:44 UTC

Dave,

Why are you bringing me into this?

Please calm down - you, of ALL the respondents here, have the LEAST possible
tangible beef with anybody else, yet you are the most passionately flameful,
here.

You, defending your friend, claimed he is not a "supporter."

Someone offered you proof that he has been, and not in any kind of mild way
(in the links that you chose to ignore).

I can say, fwiw, that when I was "round robin"-ed by the goon squad on SOTW,
I interpreted many of your friend's actions to be part of that group's cheap
little bullying campaign.

More, I observed Tim's veiled threats to Grumps on SOTW, and while I may
personally take Grumps to be an ass of major proportions - Grumps, being
fair-minded, lol, will have no compunctions in confirming that I have
expressed this "to his face" - I also felt Tim's promise to drop in and
visit, along with "StevenW" or whomever of "the goonsquad" to be clearly
legible as a threat.

I think time and its passing is playing a role here, in your own response,
too, fwiw, Dave.

Let me remind you of something you yourself posted, some time ago. You
wrote
(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl666577504d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe
=UTF-8&selm=20030125132949.14467.00000160%40mb-mw.aol.com):

"I have to agree w/ Palo on this one.... SOTW has sadly, turned into a
private
sewing circle of censorship. If you offend the powers that be, you
will be deleted . If you critize the sacred cows, the moderator will
'correct' you [sic].... It use to be an enjoyable place to get info,
exchange ideas, but now .... [elipsis in orig] whew ! [sic] It's sad . .
. really. [elipsis in orig] A lot of J - I - V - E resides there
[sic]"

You are defending your friend, that's cool. Whatever, just leave me out of
it.

Everybody makes mistakes, even close friends, and friends can indeed have
flaws that, being friends of theirs, we would rather not admit. Even people
who in other areas of life may be fine individuals can be nasty and petty
when their dependencies/accountability is tested. I think you are making
that kind of mistake now, but that is going to be a matter of opinion for
you, which is fine with me.

You speak about how little you care about all this internet "warrior"-ing.
Do us all a favor and walk the walk, if you are going to talk the talk.

And again, bring me into it only if you can show me the respect I show you,
by trying to understand your actions.

You haven't shown that your interest is in anything but further posturing,
now that your passionate claims have been challenged by others. If anything
identifies the essence of "flamer in a flame war," that is it.

Post by Shang
All public information, "Dave".

Now you're being a bigger idiot than
I took you for .
When you googled up that tired thread,
you really didn't read it, or you ignored
the obvious .
Tom Glusac admitted that he was making
jokes directed at Tim Price . This was
a regular pattern and the only real reason
was that he perceived that Tim was
making it his personal forum .
You're `thanking Tom for that` was about
as weak as I've seen . You needed a
second or two to regroup and think of
" what to do next " In reality he asked
you to shut up and get a life, which is
what you need to do .
Glusac's implication that Tim Price is me
is utter bullshit and he knows it, because
I have done business with his hero Phil
Barone . Me "Dave Williams"
Look at that thread chump, and you'll
see Glusac calling me a sycophant
because I didn't think that Tim deserved
to be harrased for being continually
postive on a NG for many years .
Ironically Tom Glusac to me then and
now is a liar . because if anybody is
a sycophant it was him re: his devotion
to Phil Barone who is far from an angel.
It doesn't really matter who called who,
because the issue is who started it ?
Glusac admits he started it .
He also admits that he really didn't know
Tim .. so what's the motivation ?
Why the potshots from the shadows ?
You figure it out .
The thing is you internet tough guys
think that you can run off at the mouth,
but sometimes it backfires . Last night
neither you or Grumps knew what to
do and because no one else said
anything, you got a little burst of
confidence and tried again to put your
spin on things . You inspid fool .
I think Mark said it best : Just because
someone knows someone doesn't mean
they support what they do .
This googling up public records doesn't
amount to shit; and is a really pathetic
attempt to " out " someone .
You guys have too much time on your
hands . You don't have gigs, you can
probably barely get thru your major scales
and you probably can't even gut laid
unless you drive cross country for some
used up piece of ass !
Give me break, "SHANG"
or is this Palo ??

P. Tung

2004-01-28 02:41:50 UTC

"And again, bring me into it only if you can show me the respect I show you,
by trying to understand your actions."

That's a misstatement on my part.

As I've said before - despite that more than any one I have been the
recipient of more actual effects, in the form of bullying, private email
pogroms, public political campaigns, telephone harrassment (i.e. death
threats), than any one else affected by the SOTW bullshit - I only want to
be left out of it, and left alone.

I have my opinions on the matters being discussed - and more, I have
documentation to back up any claims I should care to make, never mind my
point of view alone - but I preferred to leave these threads alone until
Dave/Kneel Jung chose to drag my name into it.

This troubled me, quite a bit, Dave, your post and its effort to complicate
the "flamewar" while claiming to be trying to quell it. Also, your question
about whether "Shang" and I are the same person (I am not, or he is not,
however you care to put it), also gave me pause.

There have been a number of posts from people using the aol.com news service
aimed at either attacking me and/or attempting to link my name to "Shang's"
in the past, and I am starting to wonder if you are in fact something very
different from what you are representing here.

Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

I am not saying you are not a real person, "Dave," but after receiving death
threats by phone over this BS, nothing would surprise me.

It just seems awfully coincidental that when you get heated you start to ask
whether I and "Shang" are the same person, while posting with a toned down
kind of put-on hipster style, from aol.com. It only seems absurd/paranoid
if you haven't been on the receiving end of the things I and some others
have been.

Mostly, though, I just want to express clearly, again, that I would rather
not be "called out," here. YOU chose to do that, though, and I felt an
obligation to reply, in this case.

Post by P. Tung
Dave,
Why are you bringing me into this?
Please calm down - you, of ALL the respondents here, have the LEAST possible
tangible beef with anybody else, yet you are the most passionately flameful,
here.
You, defending your friend, claimed he is not a "supporter."
Someone offered you proof that he has been, and not in any kind of mild way
(in the links that you chose to ignore).
I can say, fwiw, that when I was "round robin"-ed by the goon squad on SOTW,
I interpreted many of your friend's actions to be part of that group's cheap
little bullying campaign.
More, I observed Tim's veiled threats to Grumps on SOTW, and while I may
personally take Grumps to be an ass of major proportions - Grumps, being
fair-minded, lol, will have no compunctions in confirming that I have
expressed this "to his face" - I also felt Tim's promise to drop in and
visit, along with "StevenW" or whomever of "the goonsquad" to be clearly
legible as a threat.
I think time and its passing is playing a role here, in your own response,
too, fwiw, Dave.
Let me remind you of something you yourself posted, some time ago. You

(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl666577504d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe

Post by P. Tung
"I have to agree w/ Palo on this one.... SOTW has sadly, turned into a
private
sewing circle of censorship. If you offend the powers that be, you
will be deleted . If you critize the sacred cows, the moderator will
'correct' you [sic].... It use to be an enjoyable place to get info,
exchange ideas, but now .... [elipsis in orig] whew ! [sic] It's sad . .
. really. [elipsis in orig] A lot of J - I - V - E resides there
[sic]"
You are defending your friend, that's cool. Whatever, just leave me out of
it.
Everybody makes mistakes, even close friends, and friends can indeed have
flaws that, being friends of theirs, we would rather not admit. Even people
who in other areas of life may be fine individuals can be nasty and petty
when their dependencies/accountability is tested. I think you are making
that kind of mistake now, but that is going to be a matter of opinion for
you, which is fine with me.
You speak about how little you care about all this internet "warrior"-ing.
Do us all a favor and walk the walk, if you are going to talk the talk.
And again, bring me into it only if you can show me the respect I show you,
by trying to understand your actions.
You haven't shown that your interest is in anything but further posturing,
now that your passionate claims have been challenged by others. If anything
identifies the essence of "flamer in a flame war," that is it.

Post by Shang
All public information, "Dave".

Now you're being a bigger idiot than
I took you for .
When you googled up that tired thread,
you really didn't read it, or you ignored
the obvious .
Tom Glusac admitted that he was making
jokes directed at Tim Price . This was
a regular pattern and the only real reason
was that he perceived that Tim was
making it his personal forum .
You're `thanking Tom for that` was about
as weak as I've seen . You needed a
second or two to regroup and think of
" what to do next " In reality he asked
you to shut up and get a life, which is
what you need to do .
Glusac's implication that Tim Price is me
is utter bullshit and he knows it, because
I have done business with his hero Phil
Barone . Me "Dave Williams"
Look at that thread chump, and you'll
see Glusac calling me a sycophant
because I didn't think that Tim deserved
to be harrased for being continually
postive on a NG for many years .
Ironically Tom Glusac to me then and
now is a liar . because if anybody is
a sycophant it was him re: his devotion
to Phil Barone who is far from an angel.
It doesn't really matter who called who,
because the issue is who started it ?
Glusac admits he started it .
He also admits that he really didn't know
Tim .. so what's the motivation ?
Why the potshots from the shadows ?
You figure it out .
The thing is you internet tough guys
think that you can run off at the mouth,
but sometimes it backfires . Last night
neither you or Grumps knew what to
do and because no one else said
anything, you got a little burst of
confidence and tried again to put your
spin on things . You inspid fool .
I think Mark said it best : Just because
someone knows someone doesn't mean
they support what they do .
This googling up public records doesn't
amount to shit; and is a really pathetic
attempt to " out " someone .
You guys have too much time on your
hands . You don't have gigs, you can
probably barely get thru your major scales
and you probably can't even gut laid
unless you drive cross country for some
used up piece of ass !
Give me break, "SHANG"
or is this Palo ??

Kneel Jung

2004-01-28 05:01:38 UTC

Post by P. Tung
As I've said before - despite that more than any one I have been the
recipient of more actual effects, in the form of bullying, private email
pogroms, public political campaigns, telephone harrassment (i.e. death
threats), than any one else affected by the SOTW bullshit - I only want to
be left out of it, and left alone.

In light of those circumstances I can hardly blame you .

Post by P. Tung
I have my opinions on the matters being discussed - and more, I have
documentation to back up any claims I should care to make, never mind my
point of view alone - but I preferred to leave these threads alone until
Dave/Kneel Jung chose to drag my name into it.

As I had done, also, until Tim was defined as " "" "
But still I should have just stayed silent.

Post by P. Tung
This troubled me, quite a bit, Dave, your post and its effort to complicate
the "flamewar" while claiming to be trying to quell it

Yes it didn't really do much in that regard .

Post by P. Tung
Also, your question
about whether "Shang" and I are the same person (I am not, or he is not,
however you care to put it), also gave me pause.

Exactly as I felt, when I was sarcastically pegged as probably "Tim ".

Post by P. Tung
There have been a number of posts from people using the aol.com news service
aimed at either attacking me and/or attempting to link my name to "Shang's"
in the past, and I am starting to wonder if you are in fact something very
different from what you are representing here.

I've often thought of switching ISPs because of that Palo . But .. in short
I try to stay out of USENET, and certainly have no issue with you that I
need to expend energy harrasing you privately or otherwise .

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

Respectfully and understandably, you are a bit paranoid about some things,
but with good reason . There are those here who could vouch for me although I
don't think in the context of this thread that they would . One in particular
has an Aol account also, so it would make it in your case a moot point .

Post by P. Tung
I am not saying you are not a real person, "Dave," but after receiving death
threats by phone over this BS, nothing would surprise me.

Again, in the wake of those experiences, I can appreciate that; but I would
ask you to "calm down" about me . I only thought you were possibly shang,
because it's seemed that yourself Grumps and Shang are alternating on this
thread, like a tag team . Also you and Shang write in a similar manner,
at least by my perceptions . Means nothing except that maybe I'm
paranoid too, LOL !!

Post by P. Tung
It just seems awfully coincidental that when you get heated you start to ask
whether I and "Shang" are the same person, while posting with a toned down
kind of put-on hipster style, from aol.com.

As I said I `started` to hold that assumption.
We're all microscoping this a wee bit too
much . I mean that seriously .

And I'm only a pseudo-hipster ; )

Post by P. Tung
It only seems absurd/paranoid
if you haven't been on the receiving end of the things I and some others
have been.

If what you say is true, I can only wonder
but am not asking if you're getting some sort
of helopf for this in the form of counseling or
some other outlet for personal resolution .

Whatever's gone down with this whole thing
cannot be a healthy thing to leave with .

If that saxtrolls forum is bringing a kind of
empowerment for you and others, the content
on the whole seems anything but healthy.
It's sort of a collective circlejerk, or like some
sort of mass case of turrets-syndrome .

Again, I'm really not attempting to be snide,
as you and your crew will undoubtedly
take it that way. Now in part I cannot blame
you, as I haven't been at all wise in some of
my crude remarks .

What are the real solutions here towards
kind of healing . Or is that out of reach.
Or would you rather continue as you were ?

I ask this collectively, not just of you; you
seem to be, on the whole a rational person,
with something to offer .

Post by P. Tung
Mostly, though, I just want to express clearly, again, that I would rather
not be "called out," here. YOU chose to do that, though, and I felt an
obligation to reply, in this case.

Much as I did; yes, I understand, and I don't
want to add to your personal trauma, Palo .

Dave

P. Tung

2004-01-28 07:37:09 UTC

That's cool, Dave.

Please see the other email, which also has had its subject line changed.

What I could respond to, I responded to in that one.

As I said I `started` to hold that assumption.
We're all microscoping this a wee bit too
much . I mean that seriously .
And I'm only a pseudo-hipster ; )

Post by P. Tung
It only seems absurd/paranoid
if you haven't been on the receiving end of the things I and some others
have been.

If what you say is true, I can only wonder
but am not asking if you're getting some sort
of helopf for this in the form of counseling or
some other outlet for personal resolution .

I have never told a lie on SOTW, here, or any of the other places you might
know me from. It is hard for people to believe the truth, because it is so
bizarre, and what it says about the players invovled is really so amazingly
sordid, and revealing of things people would rather not know about their
peers, their friends, humans on earth. I have learned really unpleasant and
bizarre truths about life on earth, and other people - specifically corrupt
and deceitful types, and "the games they play" - that I would rather not
have learned at all. The only thing nastier than nastiness itself is that
it wants to make its imprint upon others, because the people who are its
vessel despise themselves and are really not satisfied until the rest of the
world despises them as well.

I already have my resolution, fwiw. It's others who don't. I would not
have commented, or felt a need to, had you not brought my name into it.

I participate on this group because I have a compulsion to talk about saxes,
and I hate to think I might miss some little beneficial bit of knowledge I
can use in my own work. The other psychic reasons you or others can
speculate on when the political moment calls for it, which is the only time
people speculate on things like this about others.

The social aspect isn't really a big part of it, fwiw, for me. Actually,
that is the aspect of it I would rather avoid altogether. I left
saxtrolls.net because I saw myself becoming more social there than
inquisitive in my uses of the board.

People should make friends with people they can touch, and see, and feel.

Internet friendships can really only eventually be about
loyalties/associations and things like that - about political favors, in a
way, and political solace. I'm not going to go into why I think that, but I
have yet to see a reason to reconsider the idea, since beginning to measure
it out.

The really interesting question to me is why it is so hard to parse the
content of "political" from "social" when thinking the terms in relation to
internet communication between people. There has to be more to us than
this, I keep thinking.

Kneel Jung

2004-01-28 06:19:42 UTC

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

Yes Jan Klincewicz, aka BeBopper
has met me at a one of Tim's Gigs
in Philly . If he's reading the thread I
would hope he would confirm this; but
if doesn't/won't it's no big deal .

Yes Bebopper, I'm ``calling you out`` ; )

Dave

P. Tung

2004-01-28 07:42:19 UTC

That's all right. I believe you. Thanks for taking the question in stride.

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

bebopper

2004-01-28 15:29:25 UTC

Who is "Jan Klincewicz" ??

- bebopper

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

Kneel Jung

2004-01-28 16:28:57 UTC

Post by bebopper
Who is "Jan Klincewicz" ??
- bebopper

That would be you .

Dave

Mark Bushaw

2004-01-28 16:35:31 UTC

LOL!!!
Finally, some humor in this thread!

uh, it _was_ humor, right bebopper?

Mark Bushaw

Post by bebopper
Who is "Jan Klincewicz" ??
- bebopper

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

bebopper

2004-01-28 20:13:59 UTC

Maintaining anonymity on USENET has been considered an
unspoken "right" since the inception of the Internet. Only with
faith in respect for a fellow user's privacy can individuals feel
free to express themselves without fear of reprisal form the dangerous
elements who share this cyberspace with decent folks.

The use of "handles" or nicknames is one way an individual may choose
to protect his own privacy. We may all slip up once and awhile and
give away clues to our true identities (including giving away our real
names), but the Internet being the dangerous place it is, it is often
prudent to hide behind an alias for one's own protection.

As evidenced in a previous posts, there are individuals who
have received DEATH THREATS on their home telephone over posts on
alt.music.saxophone. If there are players out there willing to
terrorize some poor fellow over what is the best ligature, imagine
what might face an individual who takes on neo-nazis, skinheads and
other hate-mongers on USENET.

USENET threads are cached for a long time, potentially
infinity. It is one of the most frequent ways "Internet Detectives"
snoop on users.

Therefore, I state that anyone who thinks they are clever by
"calling out", "outing", or otherwise betraying a user's trust by
revealing their true identity in a public forum is grossly immature,
and displays an appalling lack of concern for that person's safety and
that of his/her family.

If you are willing to put someone's children in danger in
exchange for some self-serving ego-gratification, perhaps you need to
spend some introspection time considering what kind of person you are.

- bebopper

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

Kneel Jung

2004-01-28 21:10:16 UTC

My apologies, if you feel that you're
privacy was being attacked .

There had been a guy by that name
that used to post here using your
current chosen moniker .

That was why I jokingly referred to
"outing you " and of course, used the
emoticon . But it was taken out of
context, in some part .

As far as self serving ego gratification,
ummm, no, not quite . The question
was an issue of mistaken or presumed
identity.. mine . And ironically now yours.

Again, I apologize for unwittingly
assuming that you were the person that
used to use that screen name here; his
name was the aforementioned .

Post by bebopper
If you are willing to put someone's children in danger in
exchange for some self-serving ego-gratification, perhaps you need to
spend some introspection time considering what kind of person you are.

Some of that seems to be a stretch, at
least insomuch that I wouldn't willingly
put anyone in danger . Consider being
a bit less quick to judge my motive .
I simply assumed you were a former
poster . On the whole, this matter
has been resolved , but in the process
a lot of people have surely gotten their
feathers ruffled .

Good ol' Usenet; it brings out the best
in us all .

Dave

bebopper

2004-01-28 21:56:49 UTC

Apology accepted, however, nothing is a stretch these days
with regards to personal security. I apologize in kind for doubting
your motives, but stand by my statement that anyone who wishes
anonymity should be granted it.

Call ME paranoid, but I'm at the point where I accept (or at
least entertain) virtually ALL conspiracy theories and fear Dick
Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld a lot more than Osama Bin Laden. When we
call a bill that strips away what little privacy we pretend to have
left "The Patriot Act", more than a few people will get touchy about
having their real name spread around the Internet.

Cheers,
bebopper

Post by Kneel Jung
My apologies, if you feel that you're
privacy was being attacked .
There had been a guy by that name
that used to post here using your
current chosen moniker .
That was why I jokingly referred to
"outing you " and of course, used the
emoticon . But it was taken out of
context, in some part .
As far as self serving ego gratification,
ummm, no, not quite . The question
was an issue of mistaken or presumed
identity.. mine . And ironically now yours.
Again, I apologize for unwittingly
assuming that you were the person that
used to use that screen name here; his
name was the aforementioned .

Some of that seems to be a stretch, at
least insomuch that I wouldn't willingly
put anyone in danger . Consider being
a bit less quick to judge my motive .
I simply assumed you were a former
poster . On the whole, this matter
has been resolved , but in the process
a lot of people have surely gotten their
feathers ruffled .
Good ol' Usenet; it brings out the best
in us all .
Dave

P. Tung

2004-01-28 22:46:26 UTC

Post by bebopper
snip<
As evidenced in a previous posts, there are individuals who
have received DEATH THREATS on their home telephone over posts on
alt.music.saxophone. If there are players out there willing to
terrorize some poor fellow over what is the best ligature, imagine
what might face an individual who takes on neo-nazis, skinheads and
other hate-mongers on USENET.

Yeah, obviously, I agree. Just for clarification, though, since a post of
mine is ref'd here, it was actually related to SOTW, I think, and my
participation there in the past, that I received death threats (before I was
banned from the site, simultaneous with my attempts to publicize the death
threats there in order to protect myself).

I wasn't really active in this newsgroup at that time, but the consequent
call for caution, with my experience as a parable, certainly applies to
usenet as well.

Post by bebopper
USENET threads are cached for a long time, potentially
infinity. It is one of the most frequent ways "Internet Detectives"
snoop on users.
Therefore, I state that anyone who thinks they are clever by
"calling out", "outing", or otherwise betraying a user's trust by
revealing their true identity in a public forum is grossly immature,
and displays an appalling lack of concern for that person's safety and
that of his/her family.

I'm not sure if this is being directed at me, but I try to refrain from
behavior even "smacking" of that, fwiw, under even extreme circumstances
(e.g. the "Winford Barnett" trolls here, recently, whose authorship I'm not
in doubt about, but which I left unstated). While I think it's valid to
expose trolling for what it is, and sometimes "connecting the dots" between
fictitious aliases is part of that, when a bully gets to bullying,
anonymously -- and it is probably arguably fair to "out an outer" -- as a
bullying tactic in itself I totally agree that "outing" as a political
tactic is both distasteful and morally reprehensible.

Re "Kneel," I only wanted to know whether any one could confirm he's an
actual individual, rather than merely a pseudonym of a person who might have
several (and he answered this question convincingly enough for me to
consider it answered).

I didn't intend to ask his real name/identity be "outed" or anything like
that, and would not want my (earlier posted) question to be construed as
asking for that. Indeed, if you look at the thread development, you'll see
that Dave answered my question to my satisfaction without having to mention
his own name (though I guess yours was "outed" however unintentionally by
him, in the process - certainly not a situation I would have wanted,
either).

I realize you might not be referring to me, specifically, in any way, in the
above paragraph. I'm very much in agreement with you on your general points
here, though, so I figure the potential imputation that I was asking for
"outings" bears some clarification on my part, if only as a way of
underlining the importance and validity of the general point you make.

I think there is a place for uncovering authorship, e.g. when a malevolent
person associated with one alias uses several others in order to conduct a
kind of little terror pogrom -- which I think we all know is quite common on
usenet -- but outing personal names is not something I think is generally
valid, either, especially when used as a form of bullying, which is its
common form of deployment.

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

bebopper

2004-01-28 23:25:44 UTC

Actually, I had not directed any of my previous statement
toward you. In terms of "outing" trollers, I have no problem with
correlating their posts to previous ones under different pseudonyms.

The issue I have is with revealing the real name of an
individual who would prefer it not be made public. While saxophonists
are (typically) harmless, I have (perhaps this was bad judgment)
voiced opinions on groups populated by much more virulent types. I've
been around the Internet for close to 20 years now, and realize it is
increasingly easy to search archives for a nickname and uncover the
true identity of a poster. A few more hits, and you find their
address, and maybe pointers to their kid's hockey team or wife's job.

It's unfortunate that cowardly bullies exist, and though it
feels good to punish them to what extent one can, innocent people can
be hurt in the process.

I think we are in agreement, and please know I was not
directing any vitriol towards you, but towards Kneel, with whom, as
you can see, I have made peace.

Cheers,
bebopper

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:46:26 -0600, "P. Tung"

Post by P. Tung

Yeah, obviously, I agree. Just for clarification, though, since a post of
mine is ref'd here, it was actually related to SOTW, I think, and my
participation there in the past, that I received death threats (before I was
banned from the site, simultaneous with my attempts to publicize the death
threats there in order to protect myself).
I wasn't really active in this newsgroup at that time, but the consequent
call for caution, with my experience as a parable, certainly applies to
usenet as well.

I'm not sure if this is being directed at me, but I try to refrain from
behavior even "smacking" of that, fwiw, under even extreme circumstances
(e.g. the "Winford Barnett" trolls here, recently, whose authorship I'm not
in doubt about, but which I left unstated). While I think it's valid to
expose trolling for what it is, and sometimes "connecting the dots" between
fictitious aliases is part of that, when a bully gets to bullying,
anonymously -- and it is probably arguably fair to "out an outer" -- as a
bullying tactic in itself I totally agree that "outing" as a political
tactic is both distasteful and morally reprehensible.
Re "Kneel," I only wanted to know whether any one could confirm he's an
actual individual, rather than merely a pseudonym of a person who might have
several (and he answered this question convincingly enough for me to
consider it answered).
I didn't intend to ask his real name/identity be "outed" or anything like
that, and would not want my (earlier posted) question to be construed as
asking for that. Indeed, if you look at the thread development, you'll see
that Dave answered my question to my satisfaction without having to mention
his own name (though I guess yours was "outed" however unintentionally by
him, in the process - certainly not a situation I would have wanted,
either).
I realize you might not be referring to me, specifically, in any way, in the
above paragraph. I'm very much in agreement with you on your general points
here, though, so I figure the potential imputation that I was asking for
"outings" bears some clarification on my part, if only as a way of
underlining the importance and validity of the general point you make.
I think there is a place for uncovering authorship, e.g. when a malevolent
person associated with one alias uses several others in order to conduct a
kind of little terror pogrom -- which I think we all know is quite common on
usenet -- but outing personal names is not something I think is generally
valid, either, especially when used as a form of bullying, which is its
common form of deployment.

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other

than

Post by bebopper

Post by P. Tung
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

P. Tung

2004-01-29 00:49:20 UTC

Post by bebopper
snip<
individual who would prefer it not be made public. While saxophonists
are (typically) harmless, I have (perhaps this was bad judgment)
voiced opinions on groups populated by much more virulent types. I've
snip<

So, you TOO have been to rec.gambling.poker?!

lol

(Kidding, truly)

(Well not about rgp, but about you or anybody else going there, lol.)

Anyway, thanks, bebopper.

Grumps

2004-01-29 04:02:20 UTC

Therefore, I state that anyone who thinks >they are clever by "calling out",

"outing", >or otherwise betraying a user's trust by

revealing their true identity in a public >forum is grossly immature, and

displays >an appalling lack of concern for that >person's safety and that of
his/her family.

Very well put.

Hubert Barth

2004-01-30 19:47:19 UTC

Post by bebopper
Maintaining anonymity on USENET has been considered an
unspoken "right" since the inception of the Internet.

Never heard of that. Usenet is much older than the Internet, and in
some parts of it you are still expected to use your real name.

In my experience these forums are those with the most civil behaviour
around.

regards

--
Hubert

bebopper

2004-01-31 00:02:32 UTC

In saying "Usenet" I'm speaking generically of NNTP networks
(as specified in RFC 977) which is probably from around 1985-86. I
grant that on private Unix servers in the academic, defense or even
rare commercial applications at the time it would be assumed that one
would not disguise one's identity. In fact, based on the small
community of users at the time it would have been nearly impossible.

What I implied was that in applications which ran on the
PUBLIC Internet as it is recognized today (which pretty much coincides
with Tim Berners-Lee creation of the technologies underlying the Web)
that it became practical, and in cases, advisable to conceal one's
real name.

I agree that moderated forums where users have no chance of
anonymity are more civil. I also agree more polite conversations take
place in the lounge at the Four Season's than in biker bars.

You can choose your venue, but adapting your behaviour to your
surroundings is often a key to survival.

Cheers,
bebopper

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:47:19 +0100, Hubert Barth

Post by Hubert Barth

Post by bebopper
Maintaining anonymity on USENET has been considered an
unspoken "right" since the inception of the Internet.

Never heard of that. Usenet is much older than the Internet, and in
some parts of it you are still expected to use your real name.
In my experience these forums are those with the most civil behaviour
around.
regards

Mike Wilson

2004-01-28 23:51:53 UTC

I can't say that I've ever met Dave, but I did buy a mouthpiece from
him, once. It stikes me as unusual that someone like Tim would do
business under an alias.

Mike

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

P. Tung

2004-01-29 00:33:52 UTC

Thanks, Mike, I'm willing to take "Kneel"/Dave at his word, but appreciate
the generosity of yr taking time to post just the same.

I just wish it had not come from the google site, lol.

(That is genuinely a joke.)

Post by Mike Wilson
I can't say that I've ever met Dave, but I did buy a mouthpiece from
him, once. It stikes me as unusual that someone like Tim would do
business under an alias.
Mike

Post by P. Tung
Call me paranoid, but, just out of curiosity, can any one here other than
Tim, confirm actually having met "Kneel Jung?"

TEP251Sax

2004-01-28 03:31:41 UTC

Palo~
The truth is I have no control over what anyone does , so it's not really a
question
so much as supporting one thing or another, although I do completely support
the artform, not _just_ Jazz but a lot of musics. That's my foucs, and I've
always been that way .
As far as this unfortunate business about veiled threats, I can only say that
that was the furthest thing from my mind.Now again I can't do anything about
the perceptions of others, I can only explain on my own behalf, no one elses.

I'm not even defending myself here, really, just trying to explain a little bit
about
what it is I try to do . I understand that it won't be necessarily accepted,
but, again
I can't control what people do or think, and really, I'm not into that.I am who
I
am. Some like it, some don't . Everybody grows and evolves at there own
rate and in there own time .
It's all OK : )
I really hope that helps some .
~ Tim Price

Grumps

2004-01-28 05:21:28 UTC

Post by TEP251Sax
Now again I can't do anything about
the perceptions of others, I can only explain on my own behalf, no one elses.

Two things Tim; and you can answer privately if you wish. We certainly don't
need 'Kneel' as a go between. I don't even know who the hell he is anyway.
So.....honestly, why did you post that link to that page regarding my father.
Secondly, did you ever e-mail me using another aol screen name. That whole
business was very distasteful Tim, and it wasn't just an issue of perception.
We can put it behind us, and quite frankly I was looking forward to meeting you
at the Maryland SOTW'ers get together coming up in Baltimore with that in mind.
"Grumps" is just a moniker I chose based on a silly aol screen name I made up
for an online game years ago. I don't go by it outside of internet forums and
no one who's met me really thinks it fits. I've made a horrible first
impression here on this news group dwelling on this BS, but I've made 'em
before. It's how you handle what's next that counts.

And on a personal note to Palo, keep your eyes off my ass dude.

Kneel Jung

2004-01-28 06:22:25 UTC

Post by Grumps
Two things Tim; and you can answer privately if you wish. We certainly don't
need 'Kneel' as a go between.

I was never acting as a ``go-between``
Grumps. Stating my opinion, just like
you . Why this is so difficult to grasp,
for some of I have no idea .

Dave

TEP251Sax

2004-01-28 12:38:38 UTC

Post by Grumps
Two things Tim; and you can answer privately if you wish. We certainly don't
need 'Kneel' as a go between. I don't even know who the hell he is anyway.

FWIW- Dave...is a very unique musician. IF,,you know anything...about my
attitude towards MUSICS-MUSICIANS...I try_NOT_to get into any bags,
or....idiomatic junk.
That said,,Dave has a very,very open mind, and plays drums/brass/ reeds/
guitar etc. He LISTENS .
He's a inspirational person in a unique way.He's another Scorpio...like you n'
me....so there is a bit of it on him.He's younger than me.....and
we embrace our opposite views. EG-He plays brass/ he's younger...but I'm older
and uglyier. LOL.

Post by Grumps
So.....honestly, why did you post that link to that page regarding my father.

Actually-I knew cuz' of a thing I saw with
a gig I was gonna go to to see Dena Bogart and jam with her R n' B guys.
No biggie.I saw the pic.
No offence.
Remember- I used to play that club 15 years ago as I stated. fwiw- I was kinda
stunned that a larger band was somewhere
that I assumed turned into a bed n' breakfast.lol

Post by Grumps
Secondly, did you ever e-mail me using another aol screen name.

NO.

Post by Grumps
, and it >wasn't just an issue of perception.

Look- you ARE not getting my drift.
It is..perception.
I could percieve a LOT of what you did on SOTW many, many ways.
Who cares? I call it perception.
Hope that makes sense.
Let's do "put it behind us".
I think a certain humor IS lost via "net exchanges" etc.No more...no less.

Post by Grumps
I've made a horrible first
impression here on this news group dwelling on this BS, but I've made 'em
before.

It's ok- it's all ok Grumps.
The BS needs to stop. It's silly.
You made a comment about comin' to one of my gigs.Right? I'm cool on it.
I'll buy the first round of " Jack D"
This all is BS, that IS why I am not adding to the BS and flames.
NOT MY BAG DUDE.
As a person who depends on MUSIC for a living...I think this NG could be a
positive
thing.People just need to embrace their differences and chill the hell out.
If we were all the same....what a boring
world that would be. Ain't that right Grumps ? At 17 I was playing for
strippers in Boston, sharing the dressing rooms with them as they walked around
naked and
drank with me..and bitched about the things_WE ALL SHARE_as people on this
planet.
Making a living is hard these daze Grumps no matter what or who you are.I
hustle to make a go of it.I push hard. It ain't easy.

I ain't no shill or pawn though.
Ever see me really pushing SELMER?
No.
I support and try to bring light on the newer horns...but I do NOT push it in
folks faces.

Lets emrace what we all know & love as the biggest intoxicant in the
world...the biggest escape- THE SAXOPHONE.

Lets move on Grumps.'
You can make fun of my jargon,,
Ya can make fun of CRAZY WORDING.
But I really could care less.Because I know I'm far from normal.
For me-music is the motherfucker of all motherfuckers. DIG THAT ;)
I hope you agree.

Post by Grumps
quite frankly I was looking forward to meeting you
at the Maryland SOTW'ers get together coming up in Baltimore

Thank you.
I wanted to do it-its a kinda busy time period-thank god.< But-I'll share a bit
of info you might like...Do you know...Paul Demond dated for a long time Gloria
Steinman??Bet ya appeciate Paul ever more :) Funny huh ?? >

I want to do it in the spring...at this point
I'm busy with rehearsals and getting my
stuff ready for Italy. I have a big band gig the Saturday before....and
rehearsals that Sunday/Monday. I wanted to do it..but I can't. ( and, of course
the rehearsals for Italy do NOT pay...I'm not complaning )

Post by Grumps
It's how you handle what's next that counts.

All of us are adults.
All of us have a common bond.
I hold no vibe or attitude.
What's next is now.
Lets keep the channel open.
Johnny Walker Black or "Jack" Grumps?
YOU DIG? hahahaha~
It's that simple. It's life...live and let live.

I'll part on a Charles Bukowski quote Grumps...Cuz I remember you like
Bukowski.
" Some people never go crazy...what truly horrible lives they must lead".
( from the flick " Barfly" )

~ I'm a saxophone player.
This is a saxophone NG.
((( NOT A COURTROOM )))
Lets roll on.......
Peace~ Tim Price

Grumps

2004-01-28 14:52:04 UTC

Post by TEP251Sax
Johnny Walker Black or "Jack" Grumps?

It's Jack.

P. Tung

2004-01-28 23:51:34 UTC

Post by Grumps
Two things Tim; and you can answer privately if you wish. We certainly don't
need 'Kneel' as a go between. I don't even know who the hell he is anyway.

Post by Grumps
So.....honestly, why did you post that link to that page regarding my father.

Tim, I want to explain to you why your past SOTW posts to Grumps about his
gig - regardless of its orginal intentions, whether benevolent or
malevolent - in fact read/reads as a threat.

At the time you posted your offer -- I can reproduce the wording here, if
you like, which was pretty aggressive, meaning it is clear from your wording
that you are aggressively asserting yourself in the thread -- a "flare-up"
in the ongoing discord around SOTW was in process, and (in my view) related
to that flare-up your friends A. Coats and S. Weinert had been authoring
threads to SOTW (a SAXOPHONE chatboard) with photos of guns and so forth,
apparently in an effort to "virtually" wave their artillery around in a
threatening way. If you know of another more reasonable way of interpreting
that kind of behavior, under those circumstances, ON A SAXOPHONE chatboard,
you are a more imaginative person than I am.

I don't recall you posting to these "watchout, I have a gun" threads, but I
have a hard time believing you did not see them, or were unaware of them at
the time that you posted (your posted to Grumps's gig thread within about a
month of the gun threads' first appearance, and the gun threads remained
active through a period much closer to your posting, and your own posting
appeared during a time when Grumps was actively antagonizing a your friend
and "bro" - your term - SG). Under those circumstances, your promise to
arrive with Jimmy C., another personality whose name had appeared on that
board only with reference to SG, and eventually indivorceably in the context
of another flare-up in the ongoing flame (or maybe "ember") war, is hard to
read as anything but a clear taunt, or "threat" to use the stronger word.

At that time, that you should mention Jimmy C., since his name had accrued
around itself a significance only with reference to SG and the ongoing
"self-righteousness vs. revenge" war going on there, seems hard to
comprehend in any other way than as a method of articulating a taunt.

Are you going to tell me you were unaware that Jimmy C's name had gained
this connotation at that time?

It's something less than "fair play" for you to try and paint yourself as
both seer and complete idiot, in order to argue your cause, using a posture
like "I am just an innocent/naive guy" in order to defend a claim like "I am
old and wise, and that is why you misinterpret me."

Since Jimmy C's name had never significantly appeared on that board before
(or really after, either) your post to Grumps other than in the context of
"the SG saga," it seems to me for you to claim you were doing anything but
articulating a clear taunt is at best difficult, near impossible, to
believe.

And that is why I read your postings there as a taunt.

Post by TEP251Sax
Let's do "put it behind us".
I think a certain humor IS lost via "net exchanges" etc.No more...no less.

You are talking to Grumps here, but fwiw, I can do that, too, i.e. "put it
behind us."

You addressed me in another posting, though, with a kind of really corny and
transparent condescension, so I figure I have cause to respond when you
press your case, seemingly with really obvious bad faith.

Basically, in your posting to Grumps, you lay out "your version" of events,
and then try and adopt the "peacemaker" pose, (obviously/apparently in part)
to stave off further discussion that might challenge your version.

All I am doing is fleshing out the point I originally made, which you chose
to challenge with a combination of denials and posturing.

If you care to explain how you could bring up Jimmy C's name in that way,
and not see it yourself, under the context of that time and that board, as a
clear taunt, I am willing to listen.

As you can see, and as I think you already know from my previous posting
history here and elsewhere, when somebody speaks with honesty (as opposed to
the really forced/phony attempt to project it), I am generally willing to
take them at their word. I think my previous responses to Dave/"Kneel"
somewhat show that, if you need reassurance.

TEP251Sax

2004-01-29 00:18:33 UTC

Palo-

I am talking and dealing with Grumps on my own.
I am mending things.We are cool.
Your assistance is appreciated but not needed.
Thanks- Tim Price

TEP251Sax

2004-01-29 00:30:12 UTC

Post by P. Tung
You are talking to Grumps here, but fwiw, I can do that, too, i.e. "put it
behind us."

Lets do it Palo -ok

I think we have better things to do.
You can E mail me and I will talk to you.
But fwiw
Grumps and I are doing fine.
This is going fine between he and I-
No offence. Tim

Post by P. Tung
seemingly with really obvious bad faith.

Time for me to tell you relax :)
Nuff said- TIM

P. Tung

2004-01-29 00:35:13 UTC

*nods*

*walks to the kitchen and gets a bowl of cereal*

*hits send*

Post by P. Tung
You are talking to Grumps here, but fwiw, I can do that, too, i.e. "put it
behind us."

Lets do it Palo -ok
I think we have better things to do.
You can E mail me and I will talk to you.
But fwiw
Grumps and I are doing fine.
This is going fine between he and I-
No offence. Tim

Post by P. Tung
seemingly with really obvious bad faith.

Time for me to tell you relax :)
Nuff said- TIM

Shang

2004-01-31 00:38:50 UTC

why not do it out in the open?
Just wondering...

Post by P. Tung
*nods*
*walks to the kitchen and gets a bowl of cereal*
*hits send*

Post by P. Tung
You are talking to Grumps here, but fwiw, I can do that, too, i.e. "put

Post by P. Tung
behind us."

Lets do it Palo -ok
I think we have better things to do.
You can E mail me and I will talk to you.
But fwiw
Grumps and I are doing fine.
This is going fine between he and I-
No offence. Tim

Post by P. Tung
seemingly with really obvious bad faith.

Time for me to tell you relax :)
Nuff said- TIM

Mark Bushaw

2004-01-31 02:06:11 UTC

Why are you so intent on knowing everyone else's business?
It just amazes me that a person who values privacy so much that they don't
use their own name on their words wants to know what others are doing.

Mark Bushaw

Post by Shang
why not do it out in the open?
Just wondering...

Post by P. Tung
*nods*
*walks to the kitchen and gets a bowl of cereal*
*hits send*

Post by P. Tung
You are talking to Grumps here, but fwiw, I can do that, too, i.e. "put

Post by P. Tung
behind us."

Lets do it Palo -ok
I think we have better things to do.
You can E mail me and I will talk to you.
But fwiw
Grumps and I are doing fine.
This is going fine between he and I-
No offence. Tim

Post by P. Tung
seemingly with really obvious bad faith.

Time for me to tell you relax :)
Nuff said- TIM

Shang

2004-01-30 23:06:20 UTC

Tim,
how about simply answering those questions, here?

Post by P. Tung
You are talking to Grumps here, but fwiw, I can do that, too, i.e. "put it
behind us."

Lets do it Palo -ok
I think we have better things to do.
You can E mail me and I will talk to you.
But fwiw
Grumps and I are doing fine.
This is going fine between he and I-
No offence. Tim

Post by P. Tung
seemingly with really obvious bad faith.

Time for me to tell you relax :)
Nuff said- TIM

Kneel Jung

2004-01-28 04:37:05 UTC

Post by P. Tung
Please calm down - you, of ALL the respondents here, have the LEAST possible
tangible beef with anybody else, yet you are the most passionately flameful,
here.

Actually I was as cool as I could be up
to the point of that sarcastic barb, as to
whether or not I actually exist, when I've
posted here for awhile . But I admit it
was over the top, yes .

Post by P. Tung
You, defending your friend, claimed he is not a "supporter."

I think at the point of entry where I said
that I didn't think that Tim was supporting
the actual wrongdoing, I didn't see any
direct involvment, that's all .

I didn't ignore the Links, Palo, in fact
I didn't interpret the comments from, what
2001 from Goodson that what happened
a short time ago with the SG Unison
situation, as implicating Tim . The thread
with Tom Glusac seemed designed to
prove that Tim is instigated threats. What
wasn't considered is that Tom admitted
that he trolled Tim for awhile prior .

You should go look at the entire thread
and see that it grew out of someone
deciding to be snide and disrespectful.
He said he was embarrased that it even
happened. Now my take is that he was
embarrased that his actions caused more
problems than he was asking for .
The statement that he was turned off
after that, to me isn't true, he continued
to troll SOTW for awhile before retiring as
a troll . He also said that these forums
are a waste of time, which, to his credit
I have to consider it, and have, actually.

Post by P. Tung
I can say, fwiw, that when I was "round robin"-ed by the goon squad on SOTW,
I interpreted many of your friend's actions to be part of that group's cheap
little bullying campaign.

And I think therein lies the core problem.
I'm not discrediting your experiences, I
have no vested interest in doing so,really.

Interpretation seems to be the lynchpin
of this whole issue, particulaly as the
wounds continue to fester certain glaring
issues grow or begin to distort, and I don't
mean that with any sort of undertones of
condesension .

You know, it doesn't matter so much to
me if people think that I'm a sycophant,
etc. as everyone has their spin on things
and see what they want to see; that's life.
I have no problem saying what I believe,
and I know you feel the same way .

I sort of assess him the same way; Grumps
I mean the name says it all, doesn't it ?
His debut at SOTW was pretty much
the same as you see him today. He
emerged with a fully formed style .

Que sera sera .

I haven't forgotten what I said but that
seems to be somewhat irrelevant here,
as, at least form my POV and the current
subject matter I don't think we're talking
about SOTW. My point of departure was
the comments about Tim as a Goodson
supporter . While you're googling you'll
most likely note that I've said numerous
times that I don't have high praise for the
man. In fact I've already stated that more
than once in recent weeks. Have you
forgotten that ? But again, that's not
a burning thought with me, and I don't
go around saying it ususally, because I
don't need to . That's not my cause, as
it were . Nor is Tim, despite how it's
all unfolding.

Post by P. Tung
You are defending your friend, that's cool. Whatever, just leave me out of
it.

Hey, man, understood, I thought there
was a similiarity in the writing style .
Besides, the running assumption, now
is that I don't exist and Tim is me .

That was an old Phil Barone throwback.

I made a remark once and Barone said
Dave = Tim, or something to that affect.
Go google, that if you like ; )

In a nutshell, Phil and Glusac's distaste
for Tim in that period spilled over to me
because then, like now, I gave my opinion
of him, and they thought I was, in your
words a "shill ". If you had been on this
group at that time you would've already
known that . But it really is unimportant,
unless you make it so .

Post by P. Tung
Everybody makes mistakes, even close friends, and friends can indeed have
flaws that, being friends of theirs, we would rather not admit. Even people
who in other areas of life may be fine individuals can be nasty and petty
when their dependencies/accountability is tested.

Without a doubt , I think it's part of the
human condition . None of us are perfect;
some less perfect than others. On that
score, I didn't come in to suggest any
less; but that is the perception
And at the end of the day much of this
seems to be interpretation. Not of facts
as much as intention .

Post by P. Tung
I think you are making
that kind of mistake now, but that is going to be a matter of opinion for
you, which is fine with me.

I suppose, but the question, or the
accusation, was that this support comes
in the form of deliberate obstruction of
justice with intent to silence . On the part
of some certainly but not all & ironically
not due to some proclaimed friendship .

The googling could be seen as a paper
trail of sorts of the beginning of an
obligation to stay loyal no matter what
was happening,and apparently that is
how it's being characterized ..

Post by P. Tung
You speak about how little you care about all this internet "warrior"-ing.
Do us all a favor and walk the walk, if you are going to talk the talk.

I think you are correct and up to that
point, I was dealing in, I hope, a rational
manner. But introducing that old material
into an argument and then seeing how
it was even implicated that I'm a *puppet*
entity got under my skin; and I reacted
in a way that I regret, definitely .

I would rather that it hadn't progressed to
this point, but all in all as long as people
are rational in discussing it, it has to come
out positive . But when you weigh in on
these controversial topics it can get ugly.

It's even understandable that onlookers
want us to cease and desist ASAP.

Post by P. Tung
And again, bring me into it only if you can show me the respect I show you,
by trying to understand your actions.

Understood .

Post by P. Tung
You haven't shown that your interest is in anything but further posturing,
now that your passionate claims have been challenged by others.

I think it started to smell like an attempt at
a smear campaign . In short, even like
Tom Glusac admirably stated, these message
boards are rife with problems. Not just
wholesale criminal activity, which is always
a tragedy the whole artificial nature of it, to
be is, as he put it not really productive.

As someone who has tried to talk music,
mainly the people that I've found on these
forums would rather talk about everything
but .

After you get the Unison or the Ref 54 or
the 5-digit VI then what . You have you
runyon custom spoiler or your Barone H'wood
or your JVW refaced Link now what ?

What are people listening to ?
What are they playing, who are they playing
with ?

At this point it goes with out saying that
the forums are overpopulated with trolls,
people who talk about but don't live it.
Chronic off topic banter about everything
under the sun except.

Now having whined about that enough, I have
to say I really am used to it, hence my own
decreased participation over the years .

Please don't use my commentary about
censorship, etc. to fuel your own current
endeavors to call out the Nazi War criminals,
as it were . By the time those complaints
were being leveled ( pre SG Unison, BTW),
I had already gotten bored with the climate.

A lot of people with interesting things to say
about the saxophone, and what our purpose
in owning them, had vanished from the forums.

So, my detachment from your rantings was
because long before people were getting
ripped off(again..) I had seen the writing on
the wall .

As far as flamers and trolls that is indeed
usenet speak, but is only a small part of
the problem _in my eyes_ .

These forums are just not interesting to me.

I was a being caustic in my assessment
of saxtrolls.net recently . Outside of the
SOTW/Goodson section of your site, I find
the rest of it exceedingly banal. It is a
sewing circle of its own, and while I'm not
without humour or intellect, I don't get what
your talking about, or why that kind of talk
dominates . It is boring to me and it first
originated at SOTW, and started to deflate
what little energy that site had .

As disrepectful as that sounds, I don't say it
just to sling mud . It just seems, weird for
weird sake .

What kind of people would register there, if
they _weren't_ castoff, refugee/battle weary
vets from SOTW, coming in from the cold
to sit at the fire and spit and curse into it ?

There badge of honor, being they were banned.

How long will saxtrolls.net, last ?

Honestly it's nothing to analyze and I only
posed the question as rhetorical, since it
is what is and will be what it will be; so be it.

Anyway, this is too much energy expended.

Dave( yes, really ..Dave)

the Kneel Jung is a play on words

you know, Neil Young

how does that escape people ?

P. Tung

2004-01-28 06:53:59 UTC

Dave, I'm only going to address a couple of things, figuring the rest is not
worth getting into (just because it can only cause more problems to say
more):

"Kneel Jung" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@mb-m10.aol.com...
.

Post by P. Tung
You are defending your friend, that's cool. Whatever, just leave me out of
it.

All right. Not much to do but take you at your word, and say I'm
appreciative that you can understand the bizarreness of appearances. FWIW,
users naming themselves "WickerChairGuy" and "commiepinkolol" (impersonating
the saxtrolls.net alias) also trolled me here on usenet previously from
aol.com servers. It was "commiepinkolol" (the usenet imp'er) that made the
other comment attempting to identify me with Shang in a bizarre and hostile
manner. You can understand the reason I would ask, and that much alone
shows some good faith on yr part, so I'm apt to show some good faith in
return & take you at yr word.

Post by Kneel Jung
I think it started to smell like an attempt at
a smear campaign . In short, even like
Tom Glusac admirably stated, these message
boards are rife with problems. Not just
wholesale criminal activity, which is always
a tragedy the whole artificial nature of it, to
be is, as he put it not really productive.

That matter has nothing to do with me. I wouldn't deign to speak on it.
Those - the links related to "PPPeyote" - were certainly not the links I had
in mind in any of my own previous ref's to links.

Post by Kneel Jung
As someone who has tried to talk music,
mainly the people that I've found on these
forums would rather talk about everything
but .
After you get the Unison or the Ref 54 or
the 5-digit VI then what . You have you
runyon custom spoiler or your Barone H'wood
or your JVW refaced Link now what ?

I'm not the person to pose that question to, rhetorically, lol.

You probably know what my next step was.

But it was thankfully the last one...er...sort of, lol.

Post by Kneel Jung
Please don't use my commentary about
censorship, etc. to fuel your own current
endeavors to call out the Nazi War criminals,
as it were . By the time those complaints
were being leveled ( pre SG Unison, BTW),
I had already gotten bored with the climate.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but I suspect it's related to

Post by Kneel Jung
As far as flamers and trolls that is indeed
usenet speak, but is only a small part of
the problem _in my eyes_ .
These forums are just not interesting to me.
I was a being caustic in my assessment
of saxtrolls.net recently . Outside of the
SOTW/Goodson section of your site, I find
the rest of it exceedingly banal. It is a
sewing circle of its own, and while I'm not
without humour or intellect, I don't get what
your talking about, or why that kind of talk
dominates . It is boring to me and it first
originated at SOTW, and started to deflate
what little energy that site had .

Please: here is a major misunderstanding, and you have to understand me
when I tell you: I HAVE NO ADMINISTRATIVE OR OTHER OWNERSHIP/MODERATORSHIP
RELATED ASSOCIATION WITH THAT WEBSITE, AND I NEVER HAVE HAD ANY INFLUENCE OF
THAT SORT THERE.

I was a user there, this is true, but only a user, without power beyond
whatever personal persuasion I might have (or lack thereof) due to the site
adminstrators' personal view of me, etc.

Allow me to shout again, so that there is no misunderstanding in the peanut
gallery, or in the spaces between other lurking eyes:

I DO NOT OWN THAT SITE.

(lol, it's pointless, the shouting, so I'll stop:)

I do not administrate on that site.

I do not privately email people on that site, asking them for editorial
interventions.

I have no influence or control there, nor do I desire any, nor have I EVER
desired that kind of control, or "bully power," anywhere.

Post by Kneel Jung
As disrepectful as that sounds, I don't say it
just to sling mud . It just seems, weird for
weird sake .

And now, since you know I have none of the influence others seem to have
attributed to me there, you can understand why I would find that weird, lol.

Post by Kneel Jung
What kind of people would register there, if
they _weren't_ castoff, refugee/battle weary
vets from SOTW, coming in from the cold
to sit at the fire and spit and curse into it ?

Anyway, do a search under my email, and sort it by date. You'll see the
only time I address this stuff is when it addresses me first, or when
someone comes around playing some kind of pernicious little peekabo game
with me. I post regularly, though, on a variety of other topics.

Post by Kneel Jung
how does that escape people ?

It didn't escape me. Actually, it's one of the reasons I had to ask. So I
asked. (And you answered.)

As far as I'm concerned, you and I are straight on the matter. And what's
more, now, I am betting we could both care less.

Or would like to.

lolol

Saxtroll

2004-01-29 23:52:36 UTC

"And now, since you know I have none of the influence others seem to have
attributed to me there, you can understand why I would find that weird,
lol."

Weird indeed, dude. you know I love you like a brother typist. I wouldn't
fight with you otherwise.

Just for the record. I, Saxtroll, own Saxtrolls.net. please feel free to
come over and post whatever. We do not ban, we do not delete, we do not try
to pressure any particular position or information. There is private
messaging available because it is a fun feature of phpBB. Myself and Dijaldi
are the empowered non-moderators of saxtrolls.net.

Myself and Dijaldi are friends in real life with weekly contact in the form
of alcoholism and mediocre musicianship.

It is my site and my management model for it is anarchy. CPL's words are
quite powerful and do not require any administrative assistance whatsoever.
I wouldn't help him if he needed it because I have neither the time nor
inclination to manage that way. Anarchy is easy to manage.

I DO at times post a rather disgusting picture for the purposes of
communicating my editorial feelings about threads just like this. It
represents what happens when something that should be fun goes horribly
wrong. View at your own peril.

Loading Image...

Come back soon, CPL. You've taught me more about my humanity by typing than
any other.

-Saxtroll

Post by P. Tung
Dave, I'm only going to address a couple of things, figuring the rest is not
worth getting into (just because it can only cause more problems to say
.

Post by P. Tung
You are defending your friend, that's cool. Whatever, just leave me

out

Post by P. Tung
of

Post by P. Tung
it.

All right. Not much to do but take you at your word, and say I'm
appreciative that you can understand the bizarreness of appearances.

FWIW,

Post by P. Tung
users naming themselves "WickerChairGuy" and "commiepinkolol"

(impersonating

Post by P. Tung
the saxtrolls.net alias) also trolled me here on usenet previously from
aol.com servers. It was "commiepinkolol" (the usenet imp'er) that made the
other comment attempting to identify me with Shang in a bizarre and hostile
manner. You can understand the reason I would ask, and that much alone
shows some good faith on yr part, so I'm apt to show some good faith in
return & take you at yr word.

That matter has nothing to do with me. I wouldn't deign to speak on it.
Those - the links related to "PPPeyote" - were certainly not the links I had
in mind in any of my own previous ref's to links.

I'm not the person to pose that question to, rhetorically, lol.
You probably know what my next step was.
But it was thankfully the last one...er...sort of, lol.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but I suspect it's related to

Please: here is a major misunderstanding, and you have to understand me
when I tell you: I HAVE NO ADMINISTRATIVE OR OTHER

OWNERSHIP/MODERATORSHIP

Post by P. Tung
RELATED ASSOCIATION WITH THAT WEBSITE, AND I NEVER HAVE HAD ANY INFLUENCE OF
THAT SORT THERE.
I was a user there, this is true, but only a user, without power beyond
whatever personal persuasion I might have (or lack thereof) due to the site
adminstrators' personal view of me, etc.
Allow me to shout again, so that there is no misunderstanding in the peanut
I DO NOT OWN THAT SITE.
(lol, it's pointless, the shouting, so I'll stop:)
I do not administrate on that site.
I do not privately email people on that site, asking them for editorial
interventions.
I have no influence or control there, nor do I desire any, nor have I

EVER

Post by P. Tung
desired that kind of control, or "bully power," anywhere.

Post by Kneel Jung
As disrepectful as that sounds, I don't say it
just to sling mud . It just seems, weird for
weird sake .

And now, since you know I have none of the influence others seem to have
attributed to me there, you can understand why I would find that weird, lol.

Post by Kneel Jung
What kind of people would register there, if
they _weren't_ castoff, refugee/battle weary
vets from SOTW, coming in from the cold
to sit at the fire and spit and curse into it ?

Post by Kneel Jung
how does that escape people ?

It didn't escape me. Actually, it's one of the reasons I had to ask. So I
asked. (And you answered.)
As far as I'm concerned, you and I are straight on the matter. And what's
more, now, I am betting we could both care less.
Or would like to.
lolol

Neal

2004-01-30 00:04:56 UTC

Post by Saxtroll
Just for the record. I, Saxtroll, own Saxtrolls.net. please feel free to
come over and post whatever. We do not ban, we do not delete, we do not try
to pressure any particular position or information. There is private
messaging available because it is a fun feature of phpBB. Myself and Dijaldi
are the empowered non-moderators of saxtrolls.net.

Maybe the few idiots who want to continue this no-linger-on-topic
conversation ought to take you up onm this offer. Because sure as shit
more and more people in this ng are getting fed up with the bullshit.

P. Tung

2004-01-30 02:06:02 UTC

More politics, Neal, and you are engaging in them now, yourself.

The way to put the thread to rest is just for every one to STFU, including
peanut tossers in the balcony who want to complain about "the action" and
even while (very visibly) attempting to become part of it at the same time.

I realize your frustration is real. You have to realize that it's engine is
your own compulsion to look, not the thing you are looking at itself.

Seriously: if you want this to die, leave it alone. That is the only way.

People have legitimate grievances, and have been attacked and harrassed for
daring to hold their ground in the past. Posts like yours only feel like
more anonymous attacks and politicking from the same camp, despite that you
(the real person, the author of your alias) probably have no relation to
them.

Wdflannery

2004-01-30 02:37:10 UTC

I for one have found the whole thread fascinating .... way better than Sugal
vs. Barone, for example........ and the critics should recognize that the
posters have stayed in this thread rather than jumping in everybody else's
thread ... so, if you're reading it, it ain't by accident ....

I'm waiting for the novel !

P. Tung

2004-01-30 08:31:08 UTC

I will inform my literary agent, Greenberger & Assoc's of NYC, at first
light!

(You probably think that's a joke, on my part.... Well, what the hell. I
may as well regard it as one, too.)

I will tell you something that you probably already know: this whole story
plays out over and over on the internet, wherever desperate peddlers gather
to hawk their wares, and themselves (in order, of course, to hawk their
wares).

There genuinely IS a novel in it, because there is something bizarre and
very telling about the human condition in the phenomenon of "flamewars" and
the various forms of personal aggression and conspiracy that inevitably take
root backstage, during very involved ones, especially the ones that develop
between around internet commerce.

To me, my argument/stand has been about simply being unwilling to take it up
the proverbial from a bunch of jerks, or to stand for cheap and debased
harrassment without fighting back, when it's within my ability to do so.
That is not how I'd write it, though. Every good novel needs a flawed hero,
or a good number of them, for if they weren't flawed they would never stand
to learn anything, between the book flaps. If nobody learns anything, and
nobody changes for "the better," that's not a book that is ever going to
become "A Major Motion Picture!"

Too bad more people are not like redemption-themed books, in that way.
Mostly, bad people just keep shoveling the shit, more violently with each
rejected scoopful, thinking if only it is laid on a little thicker the next
time it might pass muster.

Sad, where things are headed, and the reality that this sordid little
dungball -- this one, right here, the one you are palming now -- is just a
flake off of one that is much, much larger. People who are more ruled by a
sense of justice than of irony are pretty much screwed if they dare speak
about what they really believe to be true, because there isn't a discursive
space on earth that is free of corrupt influences and personalities
clamoring after forms of power there that will remain free of them for long.
That is the universal theme of the 21st century: "the century of
corruption," in the same sense that the 20th century is historicized as the
century of alienation.

This really is Rome, and it really is a bummer.

And there really is a novel in it, for that reason.

It will get written, too. But, God, I hope not by me.

Post by Wdflannery
I for one have found the whole thread fascinating .... way better than Sugal
vs. Barone, for example........ and the critics should recognize that the
posters have stayed in this thread rather than jumping in everybody else's
thread ... so, if you're reading it, it ain't by accident ....
I'm waiting for the novel !

Ted Thompson

2004-01-28 13:36:42 UTC

This is not the place for this kind of crap. As was mentioned , this is a
saxophone NG and is not the place for anything like this. I`ve been reading
and participating in this group for a few years and have gotten a lot out of
it, but these kinds of writings and attacks are counter productive to
everything the group should be. Phil Barone has been a friend of mine for
about four years and has done many nice things for me along the way. He`s
one hell of a mouthpiece maker and is making it in an extremely difficult
profession. My opinion of him has not changed and probably never will. I
also like to read what Tim Price has to say here because his enthusiasm is
without bounds and he makes me want to listen to people I don`t usually
hear. I`ve learned a lot from him. I hope he never stops posting to this
group.

Post by P. Tung
Please calm down - you, of ALL the respondents here, have the LEAST possible
tangible beef with anybody else, yet you are the most passionately flameful,
here.

Actually I was as cool as I could be up
to the point of that sarcastic barb, as to
whether or not I actually exist, when I've
posted here for awhile . But I admit it
was over the top, yes .

Post by P. Tung
You, defending your friend, claimed he is not a "supporter."

I think at the point of entry where I said
that I didn't think that Tim was supporting
the actual wrongdoing, I didn't see any
direct involvment, that's all .
I didn't ignore the Links, Palo, in fact
I didn't interpret the comments from, what
2001 from Goodson that what happened
a short time ago with the SG Unison
situation, as implicating Tim . The thread
with Tom Glusac seemed designed to
prove that Tim is instigated threats. What
wasn't considered is that Tom admitted
that he trolled Tim for awhile prior .
You should go look at the entire thread
and see that it grew out of someone
deciding to be snide and disrespectful.
He said he was embarrased that it even
happened. Now my take is that he was
embarrased that his actions caused more
problems than he was asking for .
The statement that he was turned off
after that, to me isn't true, he continued
to troll SOTW for awhile before retiring as
a troll . He also said that these forums
are a waste of time, which, to his credit
I have to consider it, and have, actually.

Post by P. Tung
I can say, fwiw, that when I was "round robin"-ed by the goon squad on SOTW,
I interpreted many of your friend's actions to be part of that group's cheap
little bullying campaign.

And I think therein lies the core problem.
I'm not discrediting your experiences, I
have no vested interest in doing so,really.
Interpretation seems to be the lynchpin
of this whole issue, particulaly as the
wounds continue to fester certain glaring
issues grow or begin to distort, and I don't
mean that with any sort of undertones of
condesension .
You know, it doesn't matter so much to
me if people think that I'm a sycophant,
etc. as everyone has their spin on things
and see what they want to see; that's life.
I have no problem saying what I believe,
and I know you feel the same way .
I sort of assess him the same way; Grumps
I mean the name says it all, doesn't it ?
His debut at SOTW was pretty much
the same as you see him today. He
emerged with a fully formed style .
Que sera sera .
I haven't forgotten what I said but that
seems to be somewhat irrelevant here,
as, at least form my POV and the current
subject matter I don't think we're talking
about SOTW. My point of departure was
the comments about Tim as a Goodson
supporter . While you're googling you'll
most likely note that I've said numerous
times that I don't have high praise for the
man. In fact I've already stated that more
than once in recent weeks. Have you
forgotten that ? But again, that's not
a burning thought with me, and I don't
go around saying it ususally, because I
don't need to . That's not my cause, as
it were . Nor is Tim, despite how it's
all unfolding.

Post by P. Tung
You are defending your friend, that's cool. Whatever, just leave me out of
it.

Hey, man, understood, I thought there
was a similiarity in the writing style .
Besides, the running assumption, now
is that I don't exist and Tim is me .
That was an old Phil Barone throwback.
I made a remark once and Barone said
Dave = Tim, or something to that affect.
Go google, that if you like ; )
In a nutshell, Phil and Glusac's distaste
for Tim in that period spilled over to me
because then, like now, I gave my opinion
of him, and they thought I was, in your
words a "shill ". If you had been on this
group at that time you would've already
known that . But it really is unimportant,
unless you make it so .

Post by P. Tung
I think you are making
that kind of mistake now, but that is going to be a matter of opinion for
you, which is fine with me.

I suppose, but the question, or the
accusation, was that this support comes
in the form of deliberate obstruction of
justice with intent to silence . On the part
of some certainly but not all & ironically
not due to some proclaimed friendship .
The googling could be seen as a paper
trail of sorts of the beginning of an
obligation to stay loyal no matter what
was happening,and apparently that is
how it's being characterized ..

Post by P. Tung
You speak about how little you care about all this internet

"warrior"-ing.

Post by P. Tung
Do us all a favor and walk the walk, if you are going to talk the talk.

I think you are correct and up to that
point, I was dealing in, I hope, a rational
manner. But introducing that old material
into an argument and then seeing how
it was even implicated that I'm a *puppet*
entity got under my skin; and I reacted
in a way that I regret, definitely .
I would rather that it hadn't progressed to
this point, but all in all as long as people
are rational in discussing it, it has to come
out positive . But when you weigh in on
these controversial topics it can get ugly.
It's even understandable that onlookers
want us to cease and desist ASAP.

Post by P. Tung
And again, bring me into it only if you can show me the respect I show you,
by trying to understand your actions.

Understood .

Post by P. Tung
You haven't shown that your interest is in anything but further posturing,
now that your passionate claims have been challenged by others.

I think it started to smell like an attempt at
a smear campaign . In short, even like
Tom Glusac admirably stated, these message
boards are rife with problems. Not just
wholesale criminal activity, which is always
a tragedy the whole artificial nature of it, to
be is, as he put it not really productive.
As someone who has tried to talk music,
mainly the people that I've found on these
forums would rather talk about everything
but .
After you get the Unison or the Ref 54 or
the 5-digit VI then what . You have you
runyon custom spoiler or your Barone H'wood
or your JVW refaced Link now what ?
What are people listening to ?
What are they playing, who are they playing
with ?
At this point it goes with out saying that
the forums are overpopulated with trolls,
people who talk about but don't live it.
Chronic off topic banter about everything
under the sun except.
Now having whined about that enough, I have
to say I really am used to it, hence my own
decreased participation over the years .
Please don't use my commentary about
censorship, etc. to fuel your own current
endeavors to call out the Nazi War criminals,
as it were . By the time those complaints
were being leveled ( pre SG Unison, BTW),
I had already gotten bored with the climate.
A lot of people with interesting things to say
about the saxophone, and what our purpose
in owning them, had vanished from the forums.
So, my detachment from your rantings was
because long before people were getting
ripped off(again..) I had seen the writing on
the wall .
As far as flamers and trolls that is indeed
usenet speak, but is only a small part of
the problem _in my eyes_ .
These forums are just not interesting to me.
I was a being caustic in my assessment
of saxtrolls.net recently . Outside of the
SOTW/Goodson section of your site, I find
the rest of it exceedingly banal. It is a
sewing circle of its own, and while I'm not
without humour or intellect, I don't get what
your talking about, or why that kind of talk
dominates . It is boring to me and it first
originated at SOTW, and started to deflate
what little energy that site had .
As disrepectful as that sounds, I don't say it
just to sling mud . It just seems, weird for
weird sake .
What kind of people would register there, if
they _weren't_ castoff, refugee/battle weary
vets from SOTW, coming in from the cold
to sit at the fire and spit and curse into it ?
There badge of honor, being they were banned.
How long will saxtrolls.net, last ?
Honestly it's nothing to analyze and I only
posed the question as rhetorical, since it
is what is and will be what it will be; so be it.
Anyway, this is too much energy expended.
Dave( yes, really ..Dave)
the Kneel Jung is a play on words
you know, Neil Young
how does that escape people ?

Kneel Jung

2004-01-28 15:38:57 UTC

Post by Ted Thompson
This is not the place for this kind of crap.

Agreed but as you know it happens from
time to time, Ted .

Post by Ted Thompson
I`ve been reading
and participating in this group for a few years

So have I and have seen this sort of thing
before, seems to happen about once or
twice a year, on average . It doesn't
bear any sort of policing and that never
seems to have an impact, as, when it
finishes its *finito* .

Post by Ted Thompson
Phil Barone has been a friend of mine for
about four years and has done many nice things for me along the way. He`s
one hell of a mouthpiece maker and is making it in an extremely difficult
profession. My opinion of him has not changed and probably never will.

Ted your doing the same thing I was doing
whether you realize it or not. your :

A. responding to unfavorable criticism
re: someone you respect .

B. Simply you've decided to add a post
to this so-called flamewar which in fact
is pretty much extinguished .

Also to that I would add, that I still use
a Phil Barone rubber vintage soprano 'pc.
it's a very good mouthpiece. Phil has
abilities, yes, I've never criticized his
work/product. I always loved his NY
model in particular .

It's unfortunate that Phil and Co.
got temporarily dragged into this, but,
in the grand scheme their mention was
minimal, and I didn't initiate that aspect
of it, if you look at the whole thread, which
BTW I wouldn't bother with unless you
have a few hours to kill. LOL !!

But to your point: this a saxophone NG,
and one of it's longtime contributors was
being seen/painted in a bad light , a guy
you also seem to carry a healthy respect
for, no ? Much of this based on his
posts here, but my respect comes not
just from the posts alone, but actual
real life contact with Tim outside of an
internet NG . Anyway I'm belaboring
that point . I would hope that you, if
you knew me and the circumstances you
would do the same for me.

I briefly lost control of my vehicle and took the lowroad, but changed lanes
and got back on the higher road, I hope . ; )

This is less about the saxophone than
we could hope for, but close inspection
isn't necessary to see that is still about
the saxophone and its exponents.

Also Ted and others, it would be nice
to see 'more' posting, add something .

Man, I wished Benny Golson a happy
75th and NO ONE said a word .

That is 'more' offensive considering the
man's contributions . Not to me personally
and offensive is probably a tad too strong
a word . Maybe just puzzling, in lieu of
"what this NG is for "

If we can celebrate Henri Selmer, lets
look at a guy that made that Balanced
Action Selmer "puurrrrr" under his fingers.

How many onlookers and internet nannies
have thoughts about legendary composer
and saxophonist Benny Golson ?

The `average` thread here is probably
5 posts .

I'd like to see what you post next.

Tim's caused you to seek out the more
obscure players ?

Who have YOU been listening to ?

Contribute, when you can, why just
lurk all the time ?

Anyway, I say this all respectfully .

Dave

P. Tung

2004-01-29 00:16:05 UTC

Post by Ted Thompson
This is not the place for this kind of crap.

Agreed but as you know it happens from
time to time, Ted .

I disagree. This whole "flamewar" began due to discussions of sax biz under
the pretext of consumer warnings/alerts/discussion, and the fallout, which
is still going on, is an inevitable consequence of being able to openly
discuss matters such as that.

If it can't be discussed on usenet, it is not going to be discussed
anywhere.

If you want to say, "Consumer and industry-critical discussions should not
occur at all, there is no place for them," then OK, but add that to your
statement, when you complain about a "flamewar" that is an inevitable
consequence of them, because that is what you are in effect arguing when you
demand that people STFU. One of the main reasons people come to usenet in
the first place -- period -- is specifically for the purpose of accessing
useful information as consumers of one type of product or another. I am
willing to bet that more than half of the people who use usenet use it for a
purpose related to shopping, and to researching *unmoderated* consumer
reviews/complaints/raves.

What happened on SOTW is a common occurrence on moderated webboards all over
the internet any time commercial interests (or just plain bullies) on a
chatboard come up against critical voices or opposition, and refuse to allow
criticism to stand, or resort to terror/fascistic tactics in order to cause
their voices to prevail.

A great - and I would argue significant, morally/ethically speaking, i.e. a
tangible "good" - amount of consumer information has come out on usenet that
can be found nowhere else on the internet as a consequence of "the SOTW
flamewars."

What you are seeing here now is just an inevitable series of last flickering
series of pops and hisses as the fire is dying down.

I would suggest that if people really want these arguments to die, they
allow them to run their course, without feeling the need to become embroiled
themselves with calls of "STFU," etc. Nobody forces anybody to read
anything on usenet. Likewise, nobody can force anybody NOT to read anything
on usenet, through censorship, editorially-protected "tag-teaming," etc.
That's part of what's great about usenet.

I disagree with the idea that there is no place for critical debate about
consumer/production issues on usenet, because in fact that is a prime use
for it by most usenet users. I disagree with the idea that it is possible
to have open consumer/producer dialogues without flamewars (and their
aftermath, such as this thread) just such as this one ensuing. If you are
going to have critical debate, you are going to have flamewars. You can
choose to look, or not to look, but please don't blame voices you take to be
"flamethrowers" for your own frustration over not being able to just skip
reading the thread.

I can understand that frustration, but I think it is obviously a
displacement phenomenon, where one's frustration at being "seduced" is
displaced onto the object(s) of seduction.

Post by Ted Thompson
I`ve been reading
and participating in this group for a few years

If this were a chatboard, moderated, believe me this would go on much
longer, because people involved are likely to feel wounded in their wallets,
in some cases.

It seems to me this particular argument tends to flare-up at times like
around NAMM and other conventions, and during slow periods in the market.

I do think that this "flamewar" is in its denouement. You just have to let
it run its course.

For my part, I have stated many times that my involvement is only on an
"obligated to comment" basis. You may agree or disagree with my judgment in
terms of my obligations, but I have information and experience (death
threats by phone, for example, my oft-trotted out, difficult to deny, claim
to "a right to speak") that others do not have. Still, if people disagree
with me on whether I ought to be commenting, that is fine. I assume, on a
thread like this, that people are going to judge harshly, because of the
unavoidable frustration that accrues out of feeling pressured to take "a
side," and not being able to choose one for fear of committing an error of
judgement.

For the record, it's not my intention to choose up sides, or seduce people
to mine. I would think my writing style and rhetorical style would make
that clear to any one who reads closely. My idea is to tell the truth, and
to never roll over when some asshole tries to bully me, unless it creates a
"greater good" to ignore that person rather than respond.

If you have studied anything about the idea of "greatest good" in moral
decision making, you know its weakest attribute is that it relies on the
intelligence and judgment of the person employing it, to weigh out correct
(or "good") courses of action. I just have myself to go on, and the effort
I've made in the past to educate myself on what is good in the world, what
is bad, and what some practical ways of serving "the good" are.

We can disagree. That's fine. Just don't ask me to shut up, when I have
already thought through the question of whether it's right for me to speak.
FWIW, that's something I do not ask of others, ever, when it's clear to me
they are speaking to me or to anybody else with sincerity and an effort to
be truthful.

Mark Bushaw

2004-01-28 16:56:02 UTC

And all this time I thought is was a dig at Carl Jung (you know, kneel at
the alter of Carl Jung...?)

<sigh> Methinks that sometimes we read too much into the simplest of posts.

Mark Bushaw

"Kneel Jung" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@mb-m10.aol.com...
<SNIP>

Post by Kneel Jung
Dave( yes, really ..Dave)
the Kneel Jung is a play on words
you know, Neil Young
how does that escape people ?

Kneel Jung

2004-01-28 17:27:00 UTC

Post by Mark Bushaw
And all this time I thought is was a dig at Carl Jung (you know, kneel at
the alter of Carl Jung...?)

Actually Mark it is both .
That was the beauty of it, I thought.
And I'm glad you see the dry humour of
it ... : )

Cheers ,
Dave

Saxtroll

2004-01-30 00:19:26 UTC