Ligature, tight or loose?

[SaxBlower (gettin better)]

What is the accepted tension/pressure when tightening a ligature? I use a
standard yamaha 4c mpc and ligature on my YAS25. I was under the impression
that it had to be quite tight, but I found that the sound seems better if it
is not so tight.

I did buy a Rovener (style) ligature, but had problems with it as the reed
would slip as I played. It was a cheap and cheerful one, but would a higher
quality one prove to be a better bet. While the reed was in place the sound
was nice but the ligature never really tightened up that much. It was this
thought that made me try loosening the metal ligature off a bit.

What are your thoughts please.

Regards
Steve

[sticker]

It must be tightened to exactly 34.2323 lb-ft of torque on the front screw
and 31.2311 lb-ft on the rear screw.

Or you could quit worrying and just freakin' play your sax.

Whichever's easier.

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
What is the accepted tension/pressure when tightening a ligature? I use a
standard yamaha 4c mpc and ligature on my YAS25. I was under the impression
that it had to be quite tight, but I found that the sound seems better if it
is not so tight.
I did buy a Rovener (style) ligature, but had problems with it as the reed
would slip as I played. It was a cheap and cheerful one, but would a higher
quality one prove to be a better bet. While the reed was in place the sound
was nice but the ligature never really tightened up that much. It was this
thought that made me try loosening the metal ligature off a bit.
What are your thoughts please.
Regards
Steve
--
Paypal:- Self serving; Inept; Incompetent

[SaxBlower (gettin better)]

Sticker.

You are a strange kind of guy. On the face of it you seem pretty
intelligent. A man with a view and a point to make, and that is always
better than the 'don't knows' of this world, but why do you have to be so
rude and aggressive in the way you deal with things?



I asked a simple question. Most of the things I ask on this forum are fairly
ordinary, and quite basic in the scheme of things, but, as a beginner, they
are going to be, but they are things that I would like a sensible answer to.



They may be questions that you think are not worth the asking, but I didn't
think that when I posted them. It has been said that "There is no such thing
as a stupid question, only stupid answers". I rather agree with that. In
view of the replies you have given to so many posings I have to wonder what
it is you get from being an arrogant dick head? Certainly not respect. You
won't be getting that the way you are behaving.



Untill recently this forum has been a source of information, advice and
quite a few laughs. I have felt it a comfortable place to ask my beginner
questions, confident in getting good advice, and for the most part I have
got exactly that. Your sillyness will not deter me from asking similar
questions. In future I will simply ignore anything you post as not worth the
reading.



It is interesting that in so many NG's there is always a Sticker. I recently
went to alt.Linux to ask a computing question. It was a simple question that
required a simple answer. My post (and so many of the other posts to), was
answered by some arrogant fool, with a similar style to you, that didn't
have the good grace to help me. He just did what you did and spent his time
writing a pointless and stupid reply, when he could have used the time and
effort to actually help me.



Characters like you hide behind the anonymity of the web, safe in the
knowledge that you are untraceable. You are the same kind of coward that
shouts and hollas abuse to other road users from the safety of your car
knowing that they can't get you. You wouldn't have the courage to do that
if you were face to face with them.

One day I think you will have a nasty supprise.



Steve

[sticker]

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
Sticker.
You are a strange kind of guy.

Thank you. I would loathe being ordinary.

On the face of it you seem pretty

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
intelligent. A man with a view and a point to make, and that is always
better than the 'don't knows' of this world, but why do you have to be so
rude and aggressive in the way you deal with things?
I asked a simple question.

I'll give you a simple answer. Put the reed on the mouthpiece and play.

Most of the things I ask on this forum are fairly

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
ordinary, and quite basic in the scheme of things, but, as a beginner, they
are going to be, but they are things that I would like a sensible answer to.
They may be questions that you think are not worth the asking, but I didn't
think that when I posted them. It has been said that "There is no such thing
as a stupid question, only stupid answers". I rather agree with that. In
view of the replies you have given to so many posings I have to wonder what
it is you get from being an arrogant dick head? Certainly not respect. You
won't be getting that the way you are behaving.
Untill recently this forum has been a source of information, advice and
quite a few laughs. I have felt it a comfortable place to ask my beginner
questions, confident in getting good advice, and for the most part I have
got exactly that. Your sillyness will not deter me from asking similar
questions. In future I will simply ignore anything you post as not worth the
reading.
It is interesting that in so many NG's there is always a Sticker. I recently
went to alt.Linux to ask a computing question. It was a simple question that
required a simple answer. My post (and so many of the other posts to), was
answered by some arrogant fool, with a similar style to you, that didn't
have the good grace to help me. He just did what you did and spent his time
writing a pointless and stupid reply, when he could have used the time and
effort to actually help me.

Wasn't me. I don't do Linux.

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
Characters like you hide behind the anonymity of the web, safe in the
knowledge that you are untraceable. You are the same kind of coward that
shouts and hollas abuse to other road users from the safety of your car
knowing that they can't get you. You wouldn't have the courage to do that
if you were face to face with them.

All people are anonymous all the time. They hide behind masks.

One can be traced, but what's the point?

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
One day I think you will have a nasty supprise.

I LIKE that!!!!!!!

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
Steve

[Pete Thomas]

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
What is the accepted tension/pressure when tightening a ligature? I use a
standard yamaha 4c mpc and ligature on my YAS25. I was under the impression
that it had to be quite tight, but I found that the sound seems better if it
is not so tight.
I did buy a Rovener (style) ligature, but had problems with it as the reed
would slip as I played. It was a cheap and cheerful one, but would a higher
quality one prove to be a better bet. While the reed was in place the sound
was nice but the ligature never really tightened up that much. It was this
thought that made me try loosening the metal ligature off a bit.

It's got to be tight enough that the reed won't move. If the reed slips
on your Rovner, then it's not tight enough - probably the ligature is
too large if you have it fully tightened.

Slackening off the ligature will mean the reed may change position -
this in iteself is enough to change the sound. I don't imagine it's the
slackness of the ligature that's affecting the sound, i reckon its the
change of reed position.

[Lance Hoopes]

I have always thought that people ascribed way too much importance to
ligatures. If you look on the web or in some music catalogues you can
find about 20 different styles of ligatures for clarinets. They even
have one that has six little set screws that press on different parts
of the reed to apply slightly different pressure at different points.
I think that's bull shit.

That said, though, The reed still has to be allowed to vibrate so don't
tighten it as hard as you can, but just hard enough to hold the reed
still in the proper attitude on the mouthpiece.

Lance
***@dtg-llc.com

[SaxBlower (gettin better)]

Hi Lance and Pete Thomas,

My reasons for asking the question was that I had noticed a marked
difference in sound between a tight ligature and a loose one. The Rovner was
a cheapo copy and never seemed to 'pull up' evenly. Often the the reed would
slide sideways as I tightened it.
The french company BC make a ligature that looks the business, in that the
shaping at the reed area is more defined with a metal piece for the reed to
sit in (I guess), and the top part near the adjusting screw is thinner and
more flexible than the thing I had before, which just seemed poorly shaped
all round, and didn't seem to pull up nicely. One thing it did seem to show
though was the difference between a tight lig and a loose one.

In a previous post I asked about the hardness of the reed verses the mpc
opening because I was having trouble with what seemed to me to be too soft a
reed. It was suggest to me that moving the reed out effectivly made the reed
a little harder and moving it in made it play a little softer, so I realise
that the reed position makes a difference. I just didn't realise that the
tightness of the ligature would make so much of a difference.

While I agree with you Lance that there seems to be a hell of a lot of stuff
made for Sax players that seem to be for no other purpose than to have
something to sell, I don't think everything is necessarily 'bull shit'. It
is like most things in life, it suits some people and not others.

Thanks to both you and Pete for your points of view. Valuable as always.

Steve

Post by Lance Hoopes
I have always thought that people ascribed way too much importance to
ligatures. If you look on the web or in some music catalogues you can
find about 20 different styles of ligatures for clarinets. They even
have one that has six little set screws that press on different parts
of the reed to apply slightly different pressure at different points.
I think that's bull shit.
That said, though, The reed still has to be allowed to vibrate so don't
tighten it as hard as you can, but just hard enough to hold the reed
still in the proper attitude on the mouthpiece.
Lance

[saxbetel]

The simple answer is: tight enough to hold the reed safely in place,
but no tighter. Some of us who use a standard, Selmer-type two-screw
lig tighten the bottom screw firmly and the top screw a little less so.
But all this means is that a lot of obsessing is done about the
ligature. Is it that important? Well, it's one link of the chain of
getting close enough to the sound you want. Ligs do make a contribution
that sound.

[Toby]

Post by Lance Hoopes
I have always thought that people ascribed way too much importance to
ligatures. If you look on the web or in some music catalogues you can
find about 20 different styles of ligatures for clarinets. They even
have one that has six little set screws that press on different parts
of the reed to apply slightly different pressure at different points.
I think that's bull shit.
That said, though, The reed still has to be allowed to vibrate so don't
tighten it as hard as you can, but just hard enough to hold the reed
still in the proper attitude on the mouthpiece.

Actually Lance, the butt of the reed doesn't vibrate appreciably--it's a
myth that a looser lig will allow the reed to vibrate more. A looser lig
generally just increases the clearance at the tip (reeds do compress
somewhat when clamped tightly) making it seem more free-blowing.

Toby

[Greg Evans]

I've got a related ligature question. I'm too much of a newbie to be
messing around with ligatures for a different sound or response, but on my
Link's lig I end up having to crank the knob *really* tight to keep the reed
from shifting while I play. I'd like to replace it with one that simply
holds the reed securely without having to be over-tightened. What decent
non-expensive ligature will fit a metal Otto Link STM mouthpiece? Thanks!

Greg Evans

[m***@rco.rosano]

On Wed, 17 May 2006 08:10:22 -0400, "Greg Evans"

Post by Greg Evans
I've got a related ligature question. I'm too much of a newbie to be
messing around with ligatures for a different sound or response, but on my
Link's lig I end up having to crank the knob *really* tight to keep the reed
from shifting while I play. I'd like to replace it with one that simply
holds the reed securely without having to be over-tightened. What decent
non-expensive ligature will fit a metal Otto Link STM mouthpiece? Thanks!
Greg Evans

I find those metal link Ligatures rather difficult to deal with;
Maybe they were of better quality "back in the day", but the ones
being made today seem to be of pretty poor quality. You could
probably go to a local music store and find a Rovner or another brand
that fits better and makes reed changes easier and quicker while
keeping the reed securely on the mouthpiece. As far as
"non-expensive", I dunno. Rovners are about $20 USD, but they
basically last forever.

Good Luck,
Marco

[Greg Evans]

You could probably go to a local music store and find a Rovner
or another brand that fits better and makes reed changes
easier and quicker while keeping the reed securely on the
mouthpiece. As far as "non-expensive", I dunno. Rovners are
about $20 USD, but they basically last forever.

Works for me, thanks! I suspected a Rovner might fit, but I wasn't sure.

Greg Evans

[Toby]

Post by Greg Evans

You could probably go to a local music store and find a Rovner
or another brand that fits better and makes reed changes
easier and quicker while keeping the reed securely on the
mouthpiece. As far as "non-expensive", I dunno. Rovners are
about $20 USD, but they basically last forever.

Works for me, thanks! I suspected a Rovner might fit, but I wasn't sure.

Rovners come in different sizes and have a large adjustment range. Bring
your mpc along and check it out.

Toby

[Gateso]

I have used a Consoli Lig with my Link STM on my Yamaha 62 Tenor for some
time now and like it very much and yes it did make a difference to my sound,
for the better I might add.
http://www.consolims.com/
Good Luck
Brian

Post by Greg Evans
I've got a related ligature question. I'm too much of a newbie to be
messing around with ligatures for a different sound or response, but on my
Link's lig I end up having to crank the knob *really* tight to keep the
reed from shifting while I play. I'd like to replace it with one that
simply holds the reed securely without having to be over-tightened. What
decent non-expensive ligature will fit a metal Otto Link STM mouthpiece?
Thanks!
Greg Evans

[Toby]

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
What is the accepted tension/pressure when tightening a ligature? I use a
standard yamaha 4c mpc and ligature on my YAS25. I was under the
impression that it had to be quite tight, but I found that the sound seems
better if it is not so tight.
I did buy a Rovener (style) ligature, but had problems with it as the reed
would slip as I played. It was a cheap and cheerful one, but would a
higher quality one prove to be a better bet. While the reed was in place
the sound was nice but the ligature never really tightened up that much.
It was this thought that made me try loosening the metal ligature off a
bit.
What are your thoughts please.

I've never had any trouble with reed slippage with a Rovner, but the
cheapies that are made out of flexible nylon are very slippery. The real
Rovners are made of a rubberized fabric with a very high coefficient of
friction, and I've found them much less likely to slip than metal ligs.

No lig has to be very tight--all it needs to do is to keep the reed from
slipping while you are playing. To a great extent lig performace depends on
the facing of your mpc--if the table is not flat tightening the reed will
often change the reed clearance across the lay and at the tip, making for
quite a different feel. Even when the table is flat tightening will tend to
reduce the clearance at the tip, making the response seem less "open".
Basically just tighten it to taste...

Toby

[Steve Marshall]

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
I did buy a Rovener (style) ligature, but had problems with it as the reed
would slip as I played. It was a cheap and cheerful one, but would a
higher quality one prove to be a better bet. While the reed was in place
the sound was nice but the ligature never really tightened up that much.
It was this thought that made me try loosening the metal ligature off a
bit.

It sounds like you have the wrong size of lig. A Rovner should provide a
good firm pressure on the reeds. It is wrong to over-tighten and I know
people that manage to break ligatures, snap crook retainer screws etc. The
idea of the reverse type ligs like the Rovner and BG etc is that it spread
the pressure on the reed and doesn't allow someone over-tightening to crush
the reed.
Even with a decent lig it may get shifted when you put the mouthpiece on the
crook. The lig isn't designed to clamp the reed so firmly it'll withstand
any twisting of the mouthpiece. It's possible you could be knocking the reed
whilst adjusting the mouthpiece.
Some ligs have special inserts which only apply pressure in certain areas
which means reeds can be shifted easier.
If , as you say it slips whilst playing then there's a good chance the lig
is the wrong size for your mouthpiece as it shouldn't happen. If you still
have a conventional lig , go back to that and see if things work out OK. If
you want to have a similar effect to a Rovner you can turn the ligs so the
screws are on the top.

Steve M

[Steve Marshall]

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
What are your thoughts please.

Just a thought - you have got it the right way up, haven't you ? i.e. screw
on the top ?

Steve M

[SaxBlower (gettin better)]

Hi Steve.
I have gone back to the standard Yamaha ligature for the time being and
being more careful with the way I tighten it. And yes, that is the way I use
it, screws at the top, although when I started playing I did have them at
the bottom on the reed purely because that was how it was fitted when I
bought the Sax, (second hand, with a reed already fitted to the mpc),
although it never looked right to me so changed the placement using nothing
more than a bit of engineering logic.
The Rovner was a copy. Not an original Rovner and when I look at a proper
Rovner and the Consoli Lig that Gateso mentioned it is easy to see the
differences. The thing I had was very poor by comparison. It seemed to have
a bias to one side when the screw was turned. As the screw turned and the
lig tightened it seemed that only one side was pulling up, while the other
side stayed still, putting a lot of pull on one side of the reed and little
on the other. I think this was more the problem than anything I was doing
wrong that was causing the reed to slip.

Regards
Steve

Post by Steve Marshall

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
What are your thoughts please.

Just a thought - you have got it the right way up, haven't you ? i.e.
screw on the top ?
Steve M

[Robert]

Post by SaxBlower (gettin better)
What is the accepted tension/pressure when tightening a ligature? I use a
standard yamaha 4c mpc and ligature on my YAS25. I was under the impression
that it had to be quite tight, but I found that the sound seems better if it
is not so tight.
I did buy a Rovener (style) ligature, but had problems with it as the reed
would slip as I played. It was a cheap and cheerful one, but would a higher
quality one prove to be a better bet. While the reed was in place the sound
was nice but the ligature never really tightened up that much. It was this
thought that made me try loosening the metal ligature off a bit.
What are your thoughts please.
Regards
Steve

As many others have said, your ligature needs to be tight enough to
keep the reed from moving. If the reed moves as you play, it is either
not tight enough or it is the wrong size or you have it mounted
incorrectly on the mouthpiece.

The Rovner ligature needs the screw on top of the mouthpiece. A
standard metal ligature can have the screw either on top or bottom as
you prefer.

I believe that a ligature makes a definite difference in both the sound
and the playability of your reeds, but this doesn't mean that a more
expensive ligature will be better than a less expensive one -- only that
there is some small difference between ligatures. Whether this
difference is important to you or not depends on you and your setup; and
a beginner isn't likely to realize much benefit by searching for a
ligature. A beginner needs to practice first to gain proficiency, and
when the time comes perhaps a search for a mouthpiece together with a
reed might prove beneficial. The ligature search, such as it is, is for
more advanced players who have a definite tonal goal in mind.

If you prefer a looser ligature, then just use it -- the ligature police
won't come if you and I don't tell them about your peculiar habits!

[freefly]

Post by Robert
there is some small difference between ligatures. Whether this
difference is important to you or not depends on you and your setup; and
a beginner isn't likely to realize much benefit by searching for a
ligature. A beginner needs to practice first to gain proficiency, and
when the time comes perhaps a search for a mouthpiece together with a
reed might prove beneficial. The ligature search, such as it is, is for
more advanced players who have a definite tonal goal in mind.

that's true only when you're talking about quality ligs in good
condition. But beginners frequently have used, second-hand, off-brand,
or otherwise dodgy (cheap) equipment. Sometimes that's ok, used
student gear in otherwise good mechanical (if not cosmetic) shape is
fine to learn on, even if a pro wouldn't use it. But iffy equpment can
prevent a beginner from progressing.

At least with ligatures, quality ones are inexpensive enough that one
shouldn't use a questionable lig. A $20 Rovner is a pretty small
investment by saxophone standards, and it eliminates one possible
source of problems.

[SaxBlower (gettin better)]

I really do agree with you Freefly. I know from my guitar playing experience
how bad equipment can hamper you. The ligature I had was poor. I think it
was just plain bad design. I will invest in something better purely because
of the bit of playing around with ligature position and tightness has shown
me just how much the sound and ease of blowing changes. I was guilty of over
tightning and now I don't do that the sound is better and the squeeks are
much reduced.

Steve

Post by freefly

Post by Robert
there is some small difference between ligatures. Whether this
difference is important to you or not depends on you and your setup; and
a beginner isn't likely to realize much benefit by searching for a
ligature. A beginner needs to practice first to gain proficiency, and
when the time comes perhaps a search for a mouthpiece together with a
reed might prove beneficial. The ligature search, such as it is, is for
more advanced players who have a definite tonal goal in mind.

that's true only when you're talking about quality ligs in good
condition. But beginners frequently have used, second-hand, off-brand,
or otherwise dodgy (cheap) equipment. Sometimes that's ok, used
student gear in otherwise good mechanical (if not cosmetic) shape is
fine to learn on, even if a pro wouldn't use it. But iffy equpment can
prevent a beginner from progressing.
At least with ligatures, quality ones are inexpensive enough that one
shouldn't use a questionable lig. A $20 Rovner is a pretty small
investment by saxophone standards, and it eliminates one possible
source of problems.

[SaxBlower (gettin better)]

My God! Ligature Police too. I thought I had enough to do just avoiding
speeding tickets. Now I have Ligature Police to worry about!

Steve

Post by Robert
If you prefer a looser ligature, then just use it -- the ligature police
won't come if you and I don't tell them about your peculiar habits!